Episode 232: talking cacti at the Hampton Court Palace Garden Festival
Transcript
Episode 232
Jane Perrone
Hello from the damp, wrung-out rag formerly known as Jane Perrone and welcome to On The Ledge podcast! There's been a heatwave here in the UK this week. It's got very hot and as a result of that, I hope some people are a little bit more aware about the risks of climate change. It wasn't great here in the UK but I know that lots of people in other parts of the world are suffering way more. So yeah, climate change is real, people. Go and read the climate change science and let's get angry about this stuff because we need change on a governmental and a personal level. But I also know that we all need some downtime and some time to relax and enjoy ourselves and that's where On The Ledge and houseplants come in. So, welcome to the show! In this week's episode, I'm playing you the recording of my live podcast recorded at the Hampton Court Palace Garden Festival 'Flowers After Hours' event, with my guest, the delightful Gynelle Leon, and I'm also answering a question about mystery drops on a philodendron. A humongous, enormous, ginormous thank you to Dean, Kathleen, and Bingo Bango, who became Ledgends, joining my Patreon clan, and also to Frank, who became a Superfan. Thank you so much to all of you for putting your money where your mouth is in supporting On The Ledge. If you want to find out more about Patreon, check out the show notes where you'll also find info on how you can support the show in other ways. And those of you who are patrons, remember the Patreon survey that I'm running. You've got until end of play British summertime, 11:59pm British Summer Time, on the 24th, that's this Sunday, Sunday the 24th of July 2022, to fill that out. I want to hear all the criticism, good, bad, ugly! Fill that out! And if you add your email address, you will be in with a chance of getting a swag bag of On The Ledge merch. Final reminder: next week's show will be the last show for a few weeks. I'm taking August off the podcast and I'll be starting up again on September 2nd. Patreon subscriptions will be paused. I'll still be putting out briefer editions of my newsletter on the UK houseplant scene, The Plant Ledger, so if you haven't signed up for that, do go and check the show notes for a link for that. It comes out every other Friday and it's packed full of information about everything that's happening in the UK to do with houseplants.
Jane Perrone
Hello! I've always wanted to say this: good evening, Hampton Court! Thank you for joining me and the wonderful Gynelle Leon. I guess I'll introduce myself first: I'm Jane Perrone. I'm the host of houseplants podcast, On The Ledge. I want to say the first houseplants podcast, I want to say I was first, I think I was, and I'm joined by Gynelle Leon, who's the owner of the wonderfully named Prick, London's first cactus and succulent shop! So I'm really delighted to be here because I really love houseplants. And if you're not familiar with On The Ledge, the show started because, basically, my family was sick of me talking about houseplants all the time! I don't know if you get this, Gynelle? So I just thought, "I'm gonna start a podcast because then I can actually have somebody to just babble on to about this stuff that I'm really fascinated by!" and that was back in 2017 the podcast started. I think it was the year after your shop opened?
Gynelle Leon
Yeah, it was.
Jane Perrone
201, so there was something going on in the water then I think! I mean, at that time, not people knew not many people knew what a podcast was at that point but, you know, as a self-obsessed journalist with an inflated sense of my own self-worth, of course, what could I do other than start a podcast, you know!? Then 200-odd episodes and a global pandemic later, you know, it turns out the houseplants are actually quite popular now! And you've been a real trailblazer in this industry. One newspaper described your shop as a "cavern of cacti", which I absolutely love and, indeed, it is. You know, you've written two books about houseplants and you've got a column in the Guardian. I read somewhere that you've also got an MSc in forensic science? I need to hear more about that later! But let's start by talking about Prick. What was it that made you decide to switch gears and switch careers and open a cactus shop?
Gynelle Leon
I think I always thought I was going to be a florist, but I always thought it was going to happen when I was 40. I don't know, when you're young, when you're young 40 sounds like this old age when I've got everything sorted in my life! Little did I know how it works out! So I had this, like, thing in the future. This is my dream. And then I basically got dumped, I got dumped many times in my 20s, I was a serial dater, and I believed everybody was 'the one' and then the last one that dumped me, I was, like, he was a musician and he travelled the world, he moved to New York and I was, like, do you know what, he's doing whatever the hell he wants, why don't I start thinking about if there is anything I could do? Why don't I just do this florists now. So I went into it thinking I was going to own a florist, but it's only because of working in a florists and seeiing how hard it is - such hard work - like, physically, like labour intensive. I don't do mornings. Like, all these things! I realised they didn't actually suit me. I always had, like, a growing houseplant collection, especially cacti and succulents, and I was really sick of having to drive to Chelsea, like, go to Chelsea once a year, or drive for four hours up to Lincolnshire, to Cactusland, to get my plants. I just went online to Google to find somewhere in London and there was nowhere. And I kind of just thought, Well, why isn't there? There's thousands of succulent species. Why isn't there somewhere dedicated to just these incredible, loyal, hardy neglect-enduring plants? Like, they suited my lifestyle perfectly. And that's when I kind of changed route and I was like, "No! I need to open that cactus shop and I'm gonna call it Prick!" And it was just, like, a thought like that and I said, it to people and then everybody was, like, "That's genius!". I mean, it's more than name that everyone was, like "That 's genius!". They weren't really into plants. Yeah, 'cause everybody, I know, is into them now, but yeah, at the time, everyone was, like, "Yeah, it's perfect!"
Jane Perrone
I mean, the name is brilliant because it's entirely accurate, but he's also a little bit provocative! Talking about cacti and succulents, you're right, they are easy, but I do see a lot of listeners who send me pictures of things that have turned to mush and things that have wizened because they've literally thought "It's a desert plant. I don't need to water it." So, when you know somebody's coming to your shop and buying a cactus and they really, clearly, this is their first purchase, what are the things that you want to be ringing in their ears as they leave that shop?
Gynelle Leon
I think, like, with all houseplants that we're buying, we have to think about what their natural habitat's like and then emulate that home. So with cacti and succulents, although, yes, they are in arid environments, it does rain! It does rain in those places! It's just the fact that when it does rain, it's a heavy downpour, they soak up as much as they can in their fleshy leaves or in their stem and that's what allows them to keep going: there is some water in there! Whereas I think there's a big misconception where it's, like, they don't need water. It's just the fact that they do need it, but they're able to store it if you water it liberally at a time. So I think that's the number one thing where it's, like, they do need, actually, care and water, and they need quite a lot of sunlight. So I think, as with all ornamental plants, we've got them in our homes to make it look good, but I think that then people place them in areas that look good, rather than thinking about what the plant needs. So if we think about, like, care first, like okay, don't put it on your mantelpiece because there's nothing there, like, it's an empty zone. You want to put it where it's getting sunlight and it's getting enough light. So with cacti and succulents, it's usually, like, full exposure, except that you do have some. like, you know, like, if you see the hanging plants, like Ripsalis, as they usually want a little bit less, they can be scorched because they're used to getting some shade. But yeah, usually it's that and then you want to have free-draining soil. So you have lots of people put a plant in a lovely pot that doesn't have any drainage holder, put it straight in there, nothing at the bottom because it looks nice. So that's the thing, the aesthetic side of it, but then they'll water too much and it'll fill up like a bath and then and then it's all soft and mushy. And that's the, you know the rot. So it's usually either they are rotting it, or they're killing it with kindness: every time they see the plant, they're, like, "Oh, let me give it a bit more water!" and a little bit more water, like, every time they see it, rather than kind of having a schedule in their mind of, like "Okay, I watered that a week ago, or two weeks ago, let's check the soil first. We're gonna make sure that dries out completely". And the other thing with succulents is that you want to give it a season. As we were saying, in the arid environment, there are times of the year where they won't get much water and they're used to going dormant and they need that rest. So it's like choosing - that season's probably about October through to March, and it depends, because our seasons are now shifting so much, where you can get really hot days in October sometimes. So it's kind of just seeing what our environment is saying as it's getting cooler, as we're getting more rainfall, kind of then switching over to, especially with cacti, not watering. But then we have to also be aware that we've got them in our homes where we've got central heating, which they wouldn't usually have out in the wild. So it's kind of making little adjustments, but it's just mainly just knowing the care for the plant, for what it's used to, and then just emulating that at home.
Gynelle Leon
People love to put plants on a mantelpiece don't they? And really, there's not that many plants - unless you've got a really, I mean, mantlepieces are usually away from the window, like, there's not that many houseplants that are going to do well there unless you've got them under a growlight. But I mean, they do look good but I don't understand why people do it. But, you know, I mean, succulents are really tough. I had a colleague at work who, you know, had a Ripsalis on her desk and, honest to god, I don't think she ever touched it, or watered it, and it just looked exactly - it didn't grow! - but it looked exactly the same. So these plants are really really tough. I know this is like choosing, like, a favourite child, but can you pick out a particular cactus or succulent that really makes you your heart sing? Is there something you really wouldn't want to live without?
Gynelle Leon
I'm between two! I'm gonna go two because one's a succulent one's a cactus! So I would say, genus-wise, it'll be like Euphorbia succulents because they are so diverse in how they look. You'd see two different ones, like the Obesa. So if you have the Obesa next to, like, the Ingens, you'd never think they were in the same family because they look so different and I do love them for that. I don't love them for the sap, but I do love them!
Jane Perrone
The sap! We must mention the Euphorbia sap because, I don't know what it is with Euphorbias, but I have heard a few horror stories of gardeners, growers with Euphorbia sap. I think particularly when it's warm and you're in a greenhouse and you cut a Euphorbia and this milky sap kind of turns into an aerosol in the air and gets you in the eye. Yeah, it's actually really, really horrible, so you have to be really careful with those plants and a lot of people don't realise and there's always, sort of, horror stories of, you know, people realising and it's made worse by exposure to the sun, obviously. So if you're in, like, you go outside and you've got some sap on you and then it's not funny, so just be careful with your Euphorbias is all I would say! But they are an amazing, amazing family of plants. Obviously, lots of garden plants are Euphorbias too. I really love, if I can, just before you tell me your cactus, just say I love Euphorbia obesa. I think one of the names is the Tartan Golf Ball, or something like that?
Gynelle Leon
Basketball cactus, which is wrong anyway? I've not heard, but that does make sense.
Jane Perrone
I'm feeling a bit sensitive about that plant right now because my husband . . . I did a beautiful terracotta dish of succulents to take to his office. This was pre-COVID. He's just brought it home and he hasn't been in his office for quite a long time and it was just the saddest sight. Oh my gosh! This Euphorbia obesa had just crunched in on itself in this really dismal way and somehow had mealy bugs as well! So that was great! But yeah, anyway, let's talk about cactus choices!
Gynelle Leon
Cactus, it has to be the Mammillaria because, okay, I mean, this is such an easy one to flower. I feel that's, like, one thing that's really lovely about many of the species. And also, I think there's just something so otherworldly, the kind of, you know, how they kind of clone and make these massive clumps and, you know, you've got ones that can . . . I think they're gorgeous! So I think that would definitely be my cactus, yeah.
Jane Perrone
I think the thing with cacti is that the flowers, people don't really realise just how amazing the flowers are until you go to a show like this and you see some of the cactus stands are just absolutely . . . those Mammillaria, just a huge mound covered in these amazing, neon flowers, which is just absolutely stunning and that's a really good reason to grow them. They are absolutely gorgeous. I love - there aren't that many scented cacti - but I love, have you ever smelt the flowers of the Easter Lily Cactus? The big, white flowers?
Gynelle Leon
No, I haven't!
Jane Perrone
They smell like Persil, really smell like Persil laundry powder! I'm not kidding you! They're amazing. So if you like the smell of that, which I happen to do, that's a good one. That's a good one. We must touch on a subject, though, which is potentially controversial. I don't know, but the world of houseplants is full of women, which is great and delightful, but the world of cactus collecting is a little bit male.
Gynelle Leon
And so old!
Jane Perrone
And the older generation as well. How do you, how do you feel, being the younger guard of the cactus world?
Gynelle Leon
I mean, I've got lots of old-man friends! I've always . . . it is really interesting, because I think the first time I went to a BCSS, so, British Cactus and Succulent Society meeting, I walked in, and everyone was, like "Are you in the right place?" and there's that, yeah, definitely! And I was the youngest by, I mean, several decades! Like, I think, like, the next person up from me was, like, 60-something years old. But it was really lovely because, in that sense, it's, like, you've got this lovely community of people who can, like, look after you, but then at the same time, it's kind of credibility had to be gained, because it's kind of, like, "Well, you're so young! How could you know anything about this, compared to us, who've been doing this for 40-odd years!?" So it was kind of, it's hard going into any industry as a fresh person, let alone completely different to the rest of the demographic, but I always see everything, like, as a challenge. Like, it's like, I love these things, like these plants, because I generally do have a passion for it. It's not like a fad, or anything like that and I think that's been felt by the community. So it's just really nice that they embraced me and helped me learn so much about them.
Jane Perrone
Awesome. Well, I've just been slightly distracted by the jazz music we're experiencing over here! It sounds a little bit like the opening theme music for my podcast, so I'm all up for it, but yeah, there's a massive sousaphone over there! What else can I say? One of the things I love about houseplants is that I think it's a really interesting combination of art and science. Like, there's not many things in life where you're worrying about the aesthetics of the pot, and you're also looking at the incredible botany of these plants. Does your forensic science background, does this come into your work at all? I want to know whether you're, like, I don't know, what are you doing that makes that MSC all feel worthwhile?
Gynelle Leon
I'm not dissecting any. I think that, like, basically, it's quite funny because when I went to uni, I did my first degree in anatomy and I actually did it because I said, I don't want to do biology because I don't want to study plants. And it's such a . . . because, obviously, now I'm in love with them! But then, at the time, I just, I think I came out of school and I was just, like, "No plants! I just want humans and that's it really!". But I think that with the MSC, I think it teaches you to research, like I'm very good and that helped with the books, definitely. So being able to research, integrity, being able to, like, follow a process, so I think all of those things are so important in running a business. I don't know if it's applicable, like, for a plant business, but I feel like the skills that I gained during that was mostly like being able to write really well, being able to really look for facts, like, instead of just, like, grabbing things off of Google, or whatever, you know, like, being able to sit down and read and then compile, like, a report or, you know, an article or, you know, a chapter in a book. So I think definitely, that's the transferable part there. The rest of it - no. Like, it was just a lot of fun. Like, I think there were things, like, I did expert witness. So you go to, like, call, you get trained by barristers to, like, go under pressure. So they, like, completely try to, like, break you down and then they film it and they show you all the things like your weird quirks or where you go wrong and I think that's something that, in life, has taught me so much because I feel like I can kind of enjoy if anyone's going to . . . I kind of hold my steadfast, so I think there's a lot of transferable things in there, but in general, it was a really enjoyable time.
Jane Perrone
I'm not gonna break you tonight with any of my questions, clearly! I mean, I've got a degree in English Literature, which was, you know, like for my current job, not at all relevant. I just, you know, just love books and it was a great degree but, for journalism, you know, not that related. I spent a lot of times reading Dickens novels. I mean, it was nice, but it wasn't that relevant. I mean, I wonder whether younger generations are sort of steered away from thinking about studying horticulture and botany, and I'm not, I mean, I certainly wasn't. I was really into plants as a kid but I never considered doing that as a degree course or anything. It just never entered my mind. I don't know whether it's that it's just not seen as being prestigious enough, or that . . . I don't know what the reason is. But we need more young people getting into this world, so let's hope that changes.
Gynelle Leon
Yeah, in school, I never even knew, like, horticulture as a whole industry at all. You just, I knew you had, like, farmers and that was it. I didn't ever think there's anything else that goes on. So I think I always loved flowers, but I never saw any other way to do it. So I think it would be great for the next generation just to be aware of these things and also, like, being able to open it up to, like, not being just for a certain class of people. So just being everybody can do these jobs.
Jane Perrone
Yeah, exactly. I think there's a stereotype that if you get into horticulture, you're, you know, pushing a mower, which is, I mean, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's so much wider than that and there's so many other interesting careers out there, which, you know, I mean, I always say to my kids "When I was your age, my job didn't exist, so who knows what you're going to be up to!" Now, you're obviously known for your cacti, but you've also written a book about houseplants and you've got a houseplant column in The Guardian. I used to work for The Guardian, so, you know, I'm allowed to give them a plug! How do you . . . you're picking a houseplant every week to profile? Are you just going for your favourites? Or have you got any other criteria that make a plant good for inclusion in there?
Gynelle Leon
I've got a few different things that I use. I've, first of all, I kind of made a list of plants that I thought that were quite common ones that most people would have. And then I had some that were common and people struggle with, so I thought I'd do those so that they can go "Oh! That's why . . . "
Jane Perrone
Can we say Calathea? Can we?
Gynelle Leon
Yes! Everybody, like, everybody's like, "Oh, that's why! It's not me!" So that was the one thing that I do. I do also look for, like, trending plants. So I do look, like, online to see if there is . . . because you see, like, patterns online of people getting into them. And I use Google trends as well. I, like, check and see what people are looking for. But yeah, and it's kind of just a mixture of that. Or, if it's like, yeah, I loved one of mine, but it's kind of a mixture of both, but it is, as the week's get on, it's, like, "Oh, yeah, what is it going to be?" but you never run out; there's thousands and thousands of plants. So it's really lovely, especially for me if it is something that, a plant that I don't know much about, then being able to research myself. So it's . . . I love writing every week. It forces me to, like, research and write every week, whereas before, I'd go, "I'd love to write some bits" but when you haven't got a column which has to be in by a deadline, you leave it for months, or, like, "Oh, I haven't written since my last book" kind of thing! So I think that's what's really great, just to be able to, like, tap into, like, "Oh, what is it people don't know about?". And I asked, also, my followers as well. I do ask sometimes, like, "Oh, what do you want me to write about?" but almost always they say pests, and I'm, like, that's not a plant!
Jane Perrone
But we need to talk about Calatheas because, I mean, so many people buy these beautiful plants, you know, from the DIY store, or from a plant shop and it doesn't go well. I mean, you do, like, I think Instagram is a bit deceptive because you see this incredible plant on Instagram and somebody . . . you think, "Wow, I can do that!" and then you realise that you can't, you know? What is it about them that is hard? And what, you know, how do you make them happy? Is it possible in a conventional home? I mean, I'm thinking that the only one that I would I recommend to people when they're saying, you know, "I've killed all the Calatheas!", is Calathea Network, I think is one of the ones that does put up with normal room conditions without really sulking, which is that lovely one with the sort of, well, network of, like, lime green and green leaves. That's the easiest, as far as I'm concerned, but, you know, if someone tells me they've killed ten Calatheas, I'm, like, "Oh, yeah, just stop! Stop that!"
Gynelle Leon
I mean, I think, like, as you're saying with Instagram, also, it's very difficult because you don't know what country they're in. So I feel like if you've got a higher, like, humidity, then you're probably making it easier. And also, you just have to have a lot of time, which I don't have, like, to literally be constantly saying, "Are you okay? Are you okay? What else do you need? Do you need more humidity? What about your soil? Oh, I can see you're about to crisp up right there!". Like, it's just those leaves, like, I don't understand how you can keep them without having brown on some part of them!
Jane Perrone
Yeah, they are, they do lend themselves to that unless you're seeing them in a greenhouse. That is the trouble. What are the trendy plants that you're seeing? You know, you're looking at trends, are there any particular trendy blogs that you're noticing coming through? I mean, I'm thinking that Ripsalis seem to be having a big day right now.
Gynelle Leon
Yeah. I think, like, I feel, like, now everybody's getting very much, like, because of social media I think this, as well: sizes. So anything that's going to grow massive, so they can say, "Look what I've done!" The Alocasias, so the huge Alocasias, like for any of us, there's so many different species, that's what I'm noticing a lot of, it's a lot of huge Alocasias. You've got the photo, so you've got the size aspect from, like, "Look how small I am compared to my large plant!". So I feel like there's a lot, in the plant world at the moment, it's a lot of, like, these kinds of like, "I bought it here", like, and you show that, like, beginning, or, like, five years ago and look at the monster here! And I think then people buy into it. "Oh, I want to do that!". Like, "I want to see that success every day when I go into my front room!". So I definitely think that at the moment is a big time for Alocasias, like, that's all the different species of those everybody's in to; the larger the better.
Jane Perrone
Yeah, and again, not that easy. I mean . . . I think it always also depends on what kind of house you're living in. If you're living in, you know, a place with only north-facing windows and probably cacti are not going to work for you. I mean, do you get some customers coming in, where you're just like, "I can't help you" or, "You need to get growlights"? because, yeah, you know, a lot of people, especially younger people who are getting into houseplants, don't necessarily have, like, you know, a lovely, massive, floor-to-ceiling, south-facing outlook.
Gynelle Leon
I think that's the thing. I think that a lot of times, a lot of people struggle with light levels, like, their perception of light levels is so varied, because it's this thing that we think of, and we can all make our own idea of it. I think, we have a lot of emails and when people send me pictures, and I'll say, "That plant . . . " as soon as I see it "That's not quite had enough light" and they'll say "No, it's got direct light!" and I'll say "Show me. Like, pan out. Show me where it is". And this one time, it was like that it was, like, a really high-level window and the plant was on the floor and so it wouldn't get any light. And I was like, "No, that's not direct light!" So I think it's, like, educating people on what light levels are because it, once you know that and you know . . . but then you need to know what your plant needs, but I think that is that people think, "Oh, it's bright enough in here for me to read a book. That's bright light!" It's like "No!". Like, you know, it needs to be direct, you need to, you know, it needs to be on the plant. And so I think that is something and I think, obviously, as you said, in especially cities, in London, you might not have a space, you might have just one window and so it's just kind of knowing that if it's not bright enough, don't get succulents, cacti. You need to then be thinking of like, oh, if you have got one, maybe, like, a Sansevieria, you're going to get a snake plant, because then it can do with lower levels of light. So I think most people think that they're, like, plant killers, but actually, it's the fact that they just don't know the care for that plant. So if you knew before you bought the plant that you've got a shady room, you'd go out looking for shady plants, and you'd have harmony, rather than trying to put up a barrier there and it stretches looking for the light. So I think that's the number one thing that I think would help people keep their plants alive, is just to know that in every circumstance, you're just trying to emulate the plant's need; it's not where you need the plant to be. You need to, like, reverse it and work out "What does the plant need and can I give it that in my home?"
Jane Perrone
Exactly. And those Echeverias, I mean, they go like fireworks. They just stretch out and people think that's actually what they are meant to look like. No, that's not they're not meant to be! You know, looking like something out of a Dr. Seuss book! They're meant to be a compact rosette. I mean, you can kind of sometimes recover those though.
Gynelle Leon
It depends on how far gone. I always feel bad because people go, "Look at my plant - it's grown so much!" and I'm, like, "Oh! I'm going to have to tell you it shouldn't look like that!". So yeah, it definitely is one of those hard ones. And I always say to people, if it's stretched, if it's smaller at the top, if it's a lighter colour, then it's not getting enough light and then that means that, like, you won't make the mistake of others. I think lots of people get that fear, that fear of failure, that "Oh no, I'm a bad plant parent. I'm going to give up now" and it's, like, no, because with every mistake you've made, you've learned a lesson which means that you can keep another one alive, or not put a succulent in the corner. So I definitely, I always say that everything's a learning experience.
Gynelle Leon
Yeah.
Jane Perrone
Exactly and, you know, the great thing is, you can, as you say, chop the head off that Echeveria and, you know, succulent cuttings can just sit on a shelf for weeks. I mean, I've had things that have been on . . . I had some jade plant cuttings, they were literally on a shelf for months. They were fine. So as long as you're not sort of throwing too much water at them, you can oftentimes fix these problems. But yeah, it is a bit depressing when somebody thinks that's the natural shape of the plant. I feel, you know, that's, that's where the education comes in. And also, I think we've got to talk more about substrate though because that is another key thing where you get this issue of, they leave it in the no-drainage pot and then it's a giant sump and those roots, they like lots of air round them, don't they?
Jane Perrone
Do you have a secret recipe for substrates? What do you tend to use?
Gynelle Leon
Not a secret, we do share it. But we do mix up our own soil. I do like pumice - very, very hard to very hard to come by at the moment, very, very expensive, like insanely. So if anyone's hearing this and they look up online and they're, like, "What?" like, yeah . . . But I do really like pumice. I know, like, if you are, like, hardcore with cacti, you will just use pumice, you won't use anything else, but I find, like, (a) with, like, moving, like, we would never be able to, like, post things out with just pumice - it would go everywhere. It's also very expensive. So we mix ours up. So we mix ours up with coir. And we do have, like, some grit and then we have, like, some just light kind of topsoil and kind of mix it in to make a more soily kind of base but with lovely drainage for it. And it's all obviously peat-free. So yeah, that's definitely what we use. I think we have used many different ones over the years but that's usually what we use. And it's got, we put John Innis in there, the number two peat-free, for us to have that kind of soil base, but that's ours, but I know that obviously, it can be such a mixture. Some people will use, like, more grit, or they'll use perlite, or use vermiculite, like, there's so many different things you can add.
Jane Perrone
And, of course, we must mention the classic substrate ingredient: cat litter. Yes! I mean, that's really popular. I mean, you want to be choosing the right cat litter though. Yeah, I have tried to do this, where you go to the supermarket and I'm looking for the right cat litter. I'm, like, "I've got no idea!". Cat litter litter is made out of so many different things. You don't want the one made out of wood pellets, or the one made out of, like, gel granules - I don't even know what that is! It's the molar clay one, apparently, that's a pumice substitute.
Gynelle Leon
I've always seen, on the cactus forums, they always show, like, share actual links to ones.
Jane Perrone
I think there are a couple of brands that people prefer but it's a minefield, it is a minefield, but I think the main thing is, as you say, you just test it out, get the pot, put some substrate in it and run some water through it and see how quickly it drains through. If it doesn't drain through quickly, you know, you're going to put your plant under all this stress. So whatever you use, it's just got to be that free-draining stuff. I love pumice as well but, as you say, it's for some reason in this country, it's really . . . I guess we don't have any volcanoes? I don't know.
Gynelle Leon
No, no, you're right. It's like, Portugal - I think they mine for it - and there's somewhere else, but yeah, it's in Europe. There's like two countries in Europe. But that's why we don't actually have anywhere here. It's all imported.
Jane Perrone
And do you find that when you're dealing with people buying cacti, that people want to kind of, want your wisdom when they come in the shop? Are they, like, "I don't know what to buy?" or do people oftentimes just see something and absolutely fall in love with it? I know you've got some amazing specimens in the shop.
Gynelle Leon
I haven't worked in the shop for a while, but I'll talk about when I was in there every single day for six weeks. It was like a lot of people, you would have people come in saying "Show me a plant to buy", like, and I would always say just have a look at them because they all have, like, especially with character, I find they've got such great character. I was, like, they'll be able to speak to you, you'll be able to be, like, "Actually, there's something about that one", you know? And they've got such amazing geometric design, like, and I just think they're incredible because of it. But you do have that mixture, but then you do have a lot of people come in and they will potter around and then they'll, like, get the courage to be, like, "I've got a question!", you know? And they're, like, I'm, like, "It's fine for you to just ask!" so I think it's really nice that we've, what I felt when I first opened the shop is that I had created, as you were saying you wanted a place to speak to people, I had created this hub where people could come in and show me their pictures. I'd be, like, "I know you've got pictures on your phone! Just show me. I really want to see them!" like, hundreds of pictures of their plants. And I think one thing, especially with cacti, is, like, identifying them. It's so hard because there's so many different species. If you don't have any idea of the genus, it's so hard to name, so I think we have a lot of people asking for IDs because, obviously, then you'll know, like, more information about your plant and being able to care for them, but you have, like, a mixture of people that are coming in that are, like, hardcore, like, cactus fans and come in for either, like, to just talk plants, or to get advice, so yeah, it's really nice having a mixture of, like, first-time buyers, as well as people that are really into the game.
Jane Perrone
Yeah, and I find when you start talking to people, you've got to sort of weigh up, like, okay, if they start throwing some Latin names out, like ninja stars, you're like, okay, they know what they're talking about, as opposed to the person who goes "That blobby, green, blobby thing over there!" Like, you know, you find the level, but you're right though, cacti, there are so many of them and, you know, oftentimes with houseplants, usually I can give a pretty confident ID but often with cacti I'm, like "I really . . . " I mean, aside from things that I, you know, know quite well and grow myself, yeah, yes, it does get tough. And also, there's changes as well, which is another problem, the way something's changed name and some of the names are unpronounceable as well.
Gynelle Leon
I feel like now, there's things that we know so well, like, kind of, we know it by that name: "Sorry, I'm still calling it, like, that's it! I'm not going to change it over!" So there's so many things now where it's like, okay, that's what it is, but everybody else in the world still calls it by its old name and it's, like, the more they run the DNA and they're, like "Oh, actually, no, it doesn't belong to that family" it's really hard to keep up with and then, if you do call it by its new name, everybody's, like, "What? What plan are you talking about? What is that?".
Jane Perrone
If you say "Goeppertia" rather than "Calathea", it's, like, "Well, who the what now!?" So yeah, it is tricky. And I mean, some of the new names are just like I mean, I still don't know how to spell Goeppertia because I have to Google it every single time, but anyway, it is tough! And I think, with cacti, one of the things I do like is the fact that you've got such a range of sizes. Is it a situation now where people maybe have small flats, aren't necessarily buying the huge ones any more, or do people still, in cacti, still want that same plant, like you were talking about for houseplants?
Gynelle Leon
I think it's a mixture of, like, I think, with the city, if you want to, you can have that lovely collection on your windowsill, which I think is so cute, and you can nurture them and grow them and have a growing collection in a small space, but I think the statement ones are still really wanted. But because of Brexit, it's really hard to get them in, so you'll find now there's a huge shortage of, like, large cacti and also - it's Brexit - and also demand, like, they can take up to 40 years to get these, like, six foot cacti, everybody . . . this, you know, we've been riding this wave for the last six years, so obviously, if all of them have sold, now we're going to have to wait another 30-odd years, 35 to 40 years, until they're grown, so now we've just got this huge hole where it's, like, people want them but there's nowhere to get them from. So if you have got a large cactus, you need to just look after that, like, because it's so hard to come by and people have spent a lot of time nurturing them. So I feel like now, because of that, and people have just accepted that, people have now gone back to, like "Okay, I'm gonna now say in 20 years' time and be proud of this huge cactus that I've grown and say, like, I did that myself rather than buying it big".
Jane Perrone
Yeah, I think there's something in that and it's a really joyous thing, when you can grow something, the first time something flowers, it's just . . . or, you know, produces a little baby, it's a real thrill. It's a real, real thrill. But we do, I mean, I have to always say whenever I do a talk or a podcast that, you know, there are some disasters along the way. Things do die in my care, as they like to say these days. I mean, you know, it happens, and particularly with cacti, I think. Sometimes, at the end of winter, you can get that moment where it's, like, you start watering again and you realise that's not sleeping, that's dead, which is a really depressing moment, but it does, it happens to the best of us, doesn't it?
Gynelle Leon
Yes. I think people need to remember that they are living things. So as much as we can care for them, sometimes it's just their time to go, and that's one thing, and also, we're allowed to mess up! Like, I tell people all the time. They go, "Do you know - you won't believe it - I've killed a cactus". I'm, like, "I've killed loads!" Like, it's fine! Like, it happens! You might be really busy. You forgot to water that one over here, or scorching, or even, this summer, I had, like, a lovely Echinocactus grusonii, a large one, actually. It's quite sad. It's, like, 25 years old and I was, like, "It's summer time and I put it outside. I gave it a huge water, but you know what this weather is like here, like, it can be really hot one second, and then cold the next and it literally . . . I just rotted it and I was so sad. I was, like, I got too excited, thinking that we were in the full-blown summer, but we weren't quite there yet. And also, I think it might have been shocked because it had been, you know, in a cool, like, place inside and then we had this . . . so, we all make mistakes and I think it's also very comforting when people that are seen as, like, these plant people actually can say "Yeah, it happens to all of us!". I'm not going to stand here and say "No, I don't kill any of my plants" because it definitely happens but we just learn from it every time, like, and then go "Oh! Won't do that again!".
Jane Perrone
Well, the mistake I've made in the past is putting cacti on the compost heap and you pay for that because then when, you know, months later, when you're, like, turning your compost, and you get, like, spiked from beyond the grave. I mean it's just . . . that is an awful experience! I've learned not to do that with anything that's too spiky because those spikes, they just stick around, they don't break down in the same way as other plant material. You must have had some war tales of being attacked by your cacti, well, not attacked, but you know! Well, maybe you're not as clumsy! I think I fell into something when I was in your shop! I'm clumsy! So I need advice on what to do if you do get literally pricked!
Gynelle Leon
I feel, like, I remember once, it's like learning to stop yourself having the reflex of catching things when they drop. Oh, that's the one thing that I've had to rewire my brain, which is quite hard. I'd have it where something would go and you're, like "Arrgghhhh!" and you've caught it in your hand! With spines it's, I think, the bigger they are, the easier it is because you can see it, usually, to get it out. It's when you've got, like, (a) if you've got the glochids from Opuntia, or like a - what do we call them? - bunny ear cactus, where they're tiny little, like, hairs. Those ones, I'd use sellotape to pull them out and then just kind of just deal with it, the itchiness will go after a while. The more you itch, the more it makes it itchy. With the larger ones, if it is spines, either you can, like, push them out, which I find, like, if you get it quickly, if your skin hasn't, like, kind of got calloused over, you could push them out. If not, it's, like, you know, use, like a splinter, you need to kind of get it out of there, but I recently had one in my finger and I'm used to them, so I can have some on my arm and not even feel it any more and be, like, "Oh look!". They had been there about two days. But the one in my finger hurt so much and it was there for, like, two weeks. I couldn't get it out. And it's so bad that now my son constantly talks about "I think I've got a cactus spine in my arm!" and I'm, like, "No you haven't!" because he's just so used to me talking about it for that whole two weeks, going "I can't get this cactus spine out of my finger!". I think that's the worst I've had. But usually, it's just a normal, surface one; you can usually push it out, or you can, like, use the tweezers to take them out.
Jane Perrone
Yeah. I mean, when I was researching my book, I read a lot of stuff, academic papers on, you know, doctors writing academic papers on treatment of getting rid of cactus spines, and the number of different solutions they had for getting the spines out was amazing, but some of the injuries were eye-watering. You just thought, gosh, this poor person who, like, really has fallen . . . or children falling in patches of cacti. It's just horrendous. Do not do that!
Gynelle Leon
I could not imagine that. I've had people come into the store and tell me that and, like, it stays with them, like, they're, like, "As a child, I fell into a cactus!". I can imagine, like, I find it hard with just one in my finger, let alone, like, if you're covered on your body, trying to get them out, but I haven't had any huge accidents. I've just had, like, if I, like, walk into one and it gets me, or I've found that, in the greenhouse, I'd have to tie my hair up because I have, like, you'll get stuck, I get stuck with the hanging ones! That's the one thing that I always forget when I go in there! I'm, like, "Oops!". So I always try and tie hair up when I'm going in the greenhouse because they . . . and then, also, clothes as well. They'll catch on you, so I've had one before on my clothes and I sat down and it's just, like, attached to the side of me so, I mean, it's a dangerous job!
Jane Perrone
The perils of the job! Well, I mean, I guess the danger zone is when you're repotting. I mean, I just usually, like, wrap it in something, but there's no easy way to do it. There's no . . . some of those spines are just so able to penetrate.
Gynelle Leon
I use, I make like a noose out of, like, paper, so you can, like, just kind of . . . or you can use, I don't know, any piece of cloth, so that you're kind of holding it away, not actually having to touch it and then I find also I must admit, like, I don't wear gloves when I repot but, like, it's a lot to do with, like, the pressure points of, like, balancing it in a certain way that it's not going to get you, but there are some cacti where they're just too, it's too spiky, it's very lethal. But me and Daisy were talking today, like, the Agaves are probably the worst. That feels like you're just being punctured! They're so sharp and so long and thick. They're probably the most painful.
Jane Perrone
Yeah, I'm totally with you. They are absolutely lethal. In fact, I've seen on the Isle of Wight where there's a lot of Agaves, they have corks on the spikes, to stop people hurting themselves because I imagine that's, you know, they don't want to be sued by somebody who's had their eye poked out by one of these things, but they are lethal. I mean, I guess, you know, you can understand why the plant's doing it. They don't want to be eaten by herbivores in the wild and it's very sensible. But yeah, it is a peril of being involved in cacti and succulents, unfortunately. But yeah, I think the benefits outweigh the problems we're having. I have run out of questions to ask you. I don't know if there's anything my audience wants to ask before we go, or if I shall just wrap up? If you've got a question, Emily? I'm putting you on the spot here!
Gynelle Leon
Is there a way to cross-pollinate two flowering succulents?
Jane Perrone
Yeah, you can get a little paintbrush, and just, I mean, like, you can make it as complicated or as simple as you like. But you could just get a paintbrush and move pollen from one flower to another, or between two plants and then just watch out for the seed pod, which will hopefully develop, and then harvest the seed. Cactus seeds are, like, really tiny, on the whole, so that's the downside. But yeah, just play around with it. It's really fun. And most cacti are quite easy to grow from seeds, so it's worth having a go. Just make sure that other pollinators aren't coming in and, sort of like, getting in the way of what you're trying to do. But yeah, it's a fun thing to do. It's really fun. You just end up with an awful lot of cacti when you grow them from seed. That's the only thing, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But yeah, you get an awful lot of plants! I mean, why is that a problem? Of course, it's not a problem. You've got friends and family, they would all love to have a cactus. Well, thank you so much for joining me this evening and thank you to my guest, Gynelle, and the gloaming is coming on here, at Hampton Court. It's all looking rather charming, so enjoy the rest of the show and thank you very much for joining me! Thank you!
Jane Perrone
Thank you so much to my guest, Gynelle Leon, and to Hampton Court for hosting the show this year. I also got the chance to meet up with the wonderful Drag Queen Gardener, who was also doing a podcast recording at the show, and is magnificent. So do check out the Drag Queen Gardener: Daisy Desire is dragqueen_gardener on Instagram. And now time for question of the week. This one comes from Megan and it concerns some sticky drops on a Philodendron paraiso verde and Megan immediately thought that the sticky drops on those leaves were caused by honeydew. Now honeydew, I always think, sounds a lot nicer than it actually is! I'm thinking of delicious honeydew melon, I guess, but actually, it's a secretion. The word secretion is just great to start with. It's a secretion of various houseplant pests that suck sap out of our plants, namely things like aphids and scale insects. It comes out of their anus, and they basically, yeah, and it kind of is fired - sorry, this is too much information maybe! - but basically, they fire this honeydew out of their bottom area when they go to suck the sap of a plant. And when we say sap, we're talking about the phloem - this is the botanical term for it - that is in the plant's leaves and obviously that contains water, but it also contains sugars and nitrogen and some of that has to be jettisoned, and that's where the honeydew comes in. So it's a sugary excretion. I'll put a link in the show notes to an article all about honeydew, which you might find interesting. What then happens is that ants in particular are attracted to the honeydew because they want those sugars, so they will then act like a farmer of these insects, protecting them and ensuring that they have a supply of honeydew to harvest for themselves. So yes, they're very clever. And if you leave the honeydew in situ for a while, you may also find you get this black powdery stuff on top of it and that is sooty mould that builds up on the honeydew - it gets worse! So you may also see that black powdery stuff, look out for that, that you'll probably find, when you start wiping that away, that it's embedded on the very sticky honeydew below. But when you see honeydew on leaves, it can be confusing because, oftentimes, particularly if you've got a bit of a jungle environment at home, you know, I'm speaking to somebody who probably has got a jungle environment, given you're listening to this podcast, you may find that you see the honeydew on one plant, but actually, it's dropping from pests on another plant overhead. You might also spot, if your plant's next to a window, the window getting sticky. It's sometimes not that easy to spot. So Megan's wondering if this sticky stuff is indeed honeydew, but, looking around for pests, is at a loss to find any pests on these particular plants, even though she is, as all good On The Ledger listeners are, using a hand lens. So Meghan is flummoxed what could be causing this if there aren't any sap-sucking pests around. Megan's also found sticky drops on other philodendrons, including the delightful Ring of Fire. It does seem strange because, as Megan has shown me in the pictures, she's also got various marks on the leaves that do look like there could be some pest involved; paler marks, circles on the leaves, which do look indicative of some kind of pest damage. My main advice, Megan, would be just to keep an eye on your plants, keep roaming around with that hand lens, keep looking for the pest because sometimes they can migrate around and you're not necessarily sure where they were, the plant can sometimes grow past them. But it does certainly look to me like there might have been some kind of pest infestation, whether historic or current on your plants. There is also the possibility of the extra floral nectary. What on earth is that? We call it EFN for short. I'm hoping to do a whole podcast episode for the leaf botany series on these strange things, but the clue's in the name: they're nectaries, they produce nectar, but they're not connected to plants. They're extra floral, so they're usually found somewhere on the leaf, often at the very base of the leaf or along the midrib of the plant. It varies from species to species. So why would a plant be producing nectar unconnected to the whole flowering process and the process of pollination? Well, as we know, many plants do have these beneficial relationships with various creatures and botanists think that these extra floral nectaries can help to attract things like ants, which will then protect the plant from other pests, so it's a kind of a mutually-beneficial relationship. Now, extra floral nectaries generally don't occur a lot in the Araceae family, however, they are common in the genus Philodendron. I will post a link to an academic paper from the botanical journal of the Linnaean society entitled 'Extra floral nectaries in Philodendron distribution and structure', which may be of interest to some of you who want to go deeper into this subject. I would be very surprised if those plants you have listed, Megan, are not all known for extra floral nectaries, so it could well be that the sticky drops you're seeing are coming from those extra floral nectaries. So I would say it's not something to hugely worry about, the marks on the leaves may be historic pest damage, or a sign of some other kinds of problems, so it's worth keeping an eye on that, but in terms of the sticky stuff, you can just wash it away, you might need to use a bit of horticultural soap spray to remove it because, obviously, it's sticky, it does stick, but in and of itself, it's not going to cause any problems to your plant. If it's outside, or you put it outside for summer, you may find that you do attract ants, so that's something worth bearing in mind. As I say, I'm hoping to do a whole episode on extra floral nectaries in an upcoming show in the autumn, so hopefully we will learn more then, but do check out the show notes for links to that paper and also some more information about the delights of honeydew!
Jane Perrone
I hope that helps, Megan, and if you've got a question For On The Ledge, drop me a line: ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com
Jane Perrone
That's all for this week's show and I will be back next Friday. I hope you will join me then for the final show before my little summer break. Have a fabulous week! Bye!
Jane Perrone
The music you heard in this episode was 'Roll, Jordan, Roll', by The Joy Drops, 'The Road We Used To Travel When We Were Young', by Komiku and 'Part Eight' by Jahzzar. All Tracks are licenced under Creative Commons. Visit the show notes for details.
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I chat to cactus expert and business owner Gynelle Leon in a live recording at the Hampton Court Palace Garden Festival, plus I answer a question about sticky stuff on Philodendron leaves.
This week’s guest
Gynelle Leon is the founder of London’s first cactus shop, Prick. She has written two books on plants - Prick and Plant - and writes a houseplant column for the Guardian.
QUESTION OF THE WEEK
Megan got in touch to ask about her Philodendrons which seemed to be covered in sticky stuff, but no sign of pests. There are a couple of possibilities here: it could be honeydew from sap sucking pets such as aphids and scale - honeydew is excreted by these creatures as a byproduct of the sap (phloem) they suck from leaves. More honeydew facts here. If left for a while honeydew can develop a black coating which is known as sooty mould. But without any sign of pests, even with a hand lens, this seems odd. I’d keep hunting, Megan, it may be a historic infestation, or you just haven’t found them yet!
The other possibility is that the stickiness comes from extrafloral nectaries, aka EFNs. These are nectar glands that are unconnected to the plant’s flowers - they are often found at the leaf base. They produce sugary nectar which attracts ants and other insects, who then protect the plant from attack by other creatures. Not many members of the aroid family have EFNs, but Philodendrons do. To delve deeper into EFNs on Philodendrons, read this paper from the Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society.
Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue
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CREDITS
This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, The Road We Use To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Part VIII by Jahzzar.