Episode 125: what is biophilia?
Oliver Heath in the Productivity Suite he designed at the Leman Locke hotel.
Transcript
Episode 125
[music]
Jane: Hello and welcome to On The Ledge - the podcast that cares about your houseplants as much as you do. I'm Jane Perrone, your guide to the pollen and the pests, the roots and the rots. In this week's show, I discover the benefits of biophilia, meet lovely listener Eva and I answer a question about cacti.
[music]
Jane: But first, a bit of an apology, last week's show number 124 came out much later than usual. I had real difficulties uploading the show to my podcast host. I'm blaming dodgy hotel wifi. I did manage to get the show out shortly before midnight UK time, apologies that it was so late, it was just one of those days where nothing went my way. I was really struggling at about 11.30 at night and then an email came in that really lifted my heart and reminded me why I was still up trying to get the podcast out at that time of night when I was extremely tired.
I want to share a little bit of that email with you, it came from Erin in Australia and I'm sure you know that wildfires have been raging there in the last few months and here's an extract from Erin's email: "I just wanted to send you a quick thank you. I'm from the outskirts of Sydney, Australia. The fires have been close to my home but not close enough to be in immediate danger. However, where I work was a different story. Some of my clients have lost everything and others have lost their gardens but their homes were saved. I was in a little town called Buxton when the fires came through. We were told to evacuate but the road out was completely blocked. We had no choice but to stay and fight for the property. The fire came to within 50 meters of where we were, it was the most terrifying night of my life. Firefighters lost their lives only five minutes down the road, it was horrible. Anyway, I'm writing to thank you for your podcast. When I could finally leave two days later, I came home, put my headphones in and listened to some old episodes of On The Ledge. It gave me peace and time out in my mind. I think without it, I would have been emotionally wrecked. It was a comforting and soothing sound in my ears, as I replayed the last few days in my mind. So I just wanted to say thank you from the other side of the world."
I've got something in my eye there. That was a really lovely to read because it - I'm not beating myself up here at all - but I just love to hear about the impact that the show has on individual people who are going through hard times because that really is what makes it worthwhile. I know that I'm constantly asking for money and support, but the reason why I do that is to keep the show going and to keep me going, quite frankly,, also. Just knowing the impact that the show has around the world for people who are having good times, having bad times, it just really does feel great to know that it's having that kind of impact. So, Erin, thank you for that and thank you for supporting the show and telling me about that.
My heart goes out to any of you who are in Australia right now, struggling with difficult situations through the bush fires. I really hope that On The Ledge is providing a little crumb of comfort at this really horrible time. So thank you, Erin, and thank you all of you listening. I'll put a couple of links in the show notes to places where you can donate to the Australian bush fires, both to help people and animals affected. Okay, I've gathered myself now, let's move on.
I've had some lovely shiny new reviews for the show. Thank you to HousePlantHuman who wrote: "Ridiculously calming, as well as being the voice of reason in a veritable chaos of horticultural education." That's nice. Thank you very much for that, HousePlantHuman. Ales87 said that "every episode is a big, green hug". Thanks also to BlakeHomey who said: "Informative and witty, Jane never disappoints." You're setting the bar high there, Blake, but I shall do my best! If you haven't left a review for On The Ledge, give a plant pod a break and tap out a few words about what you think of the show. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside which is rather pleasant and it also helps other people get a sense of what the show is like.
Now, prick up your lugs if you happen to be a British listener, you may have heard about the plant health regulations that came into force in December last year, protecting the UK from plant pests and diseases coming in from overseas. These new plant passports have been causing some headaches for people who are selling on a small scale and not sure if they should register and also for bigger nurseries too. I've managed to secure an interview with the UK's plant health chief, Nicola Spence, but I need to know what you would like me to ask her. If you've got a burning question about how we're going to stop plant diseases entering the country or you want to find out a bit more about whether you need to be registered for plant passports, or how to look out for these on the plants you buy, drop me a line and I will put those questions to Nicola. You need to get them to me by Tuesday next week at midday UK time. That's the 28th January.
[music]
Michael: You're on the moss.
Jane: It's lovely and cool. I can imagine if you've been to the gym or something, you come back and stand on here, and in fact I'm just going to take a seat on the lovely sofa.
Michael: It's durable because we walk in the forest on moss all the time, so it's going to take that foot traffic. You can also sit on it if you so wish. I had my picture taken on it last week sitting cross-legged on it. You see, online, various different how-tos, to make your own moss mat. So it's a bit of fun.
Jane: This is the sound of me testing out a moss-covered rug. Yes, a rug covered in real moss in a plant-filled room designed by Michael Perry, aka Mr Plant Geek and a former guest on the show. He designed a suite at the Leman Locke hotel in London and plastered it in plants back in November last year, in a project by the Joy of Plants, which is the UK marketing arm of the Flower Council of Holland and a former sponsor of this show. Two other suites were also transformed with foliage and flowers and the idea was to change the way we feel through plants. You may remember that I got a chance to actually visit and stay in one of these rooms, the Productivity Suite, designed by Oliver Heath, who is an expert in biophilic design. So I gave Oliver a call to find out what biophilia actually means and how it impacts us in our homes.
Jane: Well, I think the one thing that we can say is we know that plants make us happy. Yes, you can hear how happy it's making me just standing on that soft squidgy mat of green. If you're a Patreon subscriber -- either a Ledge-End or a Super Fan - you can access the full interview with Michael Perry on my Patreon feed now. For now, back to Oliver and my first question was, what exactly is biophilia?
Oliver: Biophilia is a relatively new term to a lot of people, but actually it's an idea that's been around for some time. In fact it was popularised by the American biologist Edward O Wilson in the 1980s. Essentially, biophilia means a love of nature and it explains human's innate attraction to nature and natural processes. It essentially explains that idea of why we choose to go to the beach, the mountains and the forest when we go on holiday. We go to these places to reduce stress, to aid our mental and physical recuperation. So biophilic design is a set of principles that we can use to enhance that connection to nature in buildings, particularly, I feel, in spaces in the urban location, spaces like we find in the middle of the city of London. Finding ways of bringing elements of nature into buildings has been proven across all sorts of building typologists who help to have enormous benefits on humans, proving in lots of cases that it's very good at reducing costs and improving building outcomes.
Jane: Now this is obviously something that my listeners and I have known for a long time - that plants are good for you - because we're all very keen plant growers. How did you go about selecting the plants for the room that you designed?
Oliver: This is a really interesting project. We were contacted by Joy of Plants to consider bringing lots of plants into a hotel room and seeing what it looked like and how that benefitted people that were coming to stay. We were given a room in this beautiful hotel in Aldgate East, called Leman Locke hotel, a relatively new place, beautiful rooms, so we had a good start already. What we decided to do was to separate these rooms and basically it was like a suite. So, essentially, we've got a bathroom, a bedroom area, a lounge area and then also a kitchen and work space. We were given the theme of a Productivity Suite. So, essentially, it was a room for a tired, weary, disorientated business traveler, so what we wanted to do was to enhance each of those four spaces with an approach of what plants we might bring in and how that might benefit each individual space. So we separated it into a bedroom space, a lounging relaxation space, a work space and kitchen area and then a bathroom space. We just decided to pick plants that went into each of those spaces individually.
Jane: When it comes to filling a hotel room with plants, what are the practical challenges? I guess one of the things is that you couldn't permanently attach anything to any surfaces?
Oliver: Yes, there were a number of challenges, of course. It's an existing hotel, that's fully functioning. It is, like I said, beautifully-designed, so we weren't allowed to attach anything to any of the walls, or the floors, or anything to the ceilings - no pictures. Every project you do, there are limitations and that becomes part of the brief. What we were looking for were opportunities to do slightly unusual things, like hanging plants. So, suspending plants is one of my favourite things and I think it adds an enormous benefit because often we just have plants on the floor and actually, what we believe, is that it's quite nice to see plants in the periphery of one's vision, not just coming up from the floor but also hanging down. In a way, the concept of the room is that we really wanted to create a great sense of it being a very lush, diverse forest. So getting that real sense of richness and diversity of plants is important for not just having plants going up from the floor but fixed to the walls and also hanging down vertically from higher up, so there's lots of different approaches. We used any bits of furniture to raise plants off the floor, we concealed a plant plinth behind the sofa, we used clothes drying racks in the windows so that we could suspend plants down. So lots and lots of ways of using plants in different ways to raise them off the floor and also to allow us to use trailing plants hanging down.
Jane: I wasn't sure what they were, actually, the way that you put that framework into the window to allow you to have things hanging down, that was really clever because I think that's a problem that a lot of people face - that the fixings that might be there, like using a curtain rod or whatever, might not be strong enough and that seemed like a really clever way of adding hanging plants to a window. So if you were in a rented property, it's a great way of doing it.
Oliver: I think one of the nice things about doing this project was our ownership of the space was very much like the way that a lot of people are owning space now in that they're renting it. They're not allowed to decorate or put anything on the walls or damage any surface. So we face the issue that many, many people face today and I think that was quite a nice opportunity to demonstrate that actually bringing plants into spaces, particularly your own home, can have such an enormous impact on the quality of the space, the experience and, of course, the overall design, look and feel of the space. So finding these little ways of doing things was quite nice and quite gratifying.
So the things that we used for the window were essentially spring-loaded clothes drying racks and what happens is you can adjust them so they're telescopic. So you adjust them to being slightly bigger than the opening and then you use the spring-loaded bits to push up against the ceiling and the floor, meaning that they actually become remarkably stable. So it was a very nice, neat, very cost-effective device for getting these plants higher up without damaging any surfaces.
Jane: That's a really top tip. I'm going to be looking at those myself because that seems like a really great way of doing it. You describe yourself as a biophilic designer, can you tell me a bit about some of the other ways that biophilia comes into projects that you work on?
Oliver: I think for a lot of people, biophilia means filling spaces with plants, but actually there's a lot more to it. So, basically, biophilia is a human-centred approach to design and it's really about how we create better spaces for people. How do we create spaces that really deliver on the intended function and how do we get people to being at their best when they're in those spaces? I talk about that, it's about how you reduce stress that can be so damaging to productivity but also our communication with other people. Also, how do we help people to be in spaces to work and not get overwhelmed and not to feel too exhausted?
Essentially, there are three core principles to biophilic design. The first is how we bring real forms of nature into the space or allow people to look onto them. So it might be views on to plants, or maybe trees. It might be about how we bring natural light into spaces, or fresh air, or even water features in more extreme examples. So it's those real, sensory forms of nature. The second aspect is what we call indirect references to nature and this is how we use natural materials, colours, textures, patterns and even technologies that remind us, or evoke a feeling of nature, in spaces. The third one is, as human beings, we react to spaces in all sorts of different ways. It's about creating spaces that are exciting and stimulating and aspirational but also spaces that are calming, relaxing and restorative. So we pick and choose elements from each of these three core principles to enhance intended activity.
So when I talk about that, I mean if you design a school, you design it so that the children can learn better and faster and get better test results. If you design a hospital you design it so that patients get better faster with less medication and that the people who work in those spaces also feel less stressed and can have a better life/work balance. In a hotel environment, you want people to come in and feel immediately relaxed and to become restored through being in that space and to have a connection to the local environment. So what we're really doing is looking at how we use elements of nature to make people feel happier and healthier, less stressed and more recuperated.
Jane: Is there any steer on how many plants we need in our homes to get this benefit? Is one plant that we really love and nurture enough? Or do we need to be really filling our homes with plants, in the way that you did in the Productivity Suite?
Oliver: No, I think the Productivity Suite is something of an extreme example, but I've got to say the reaction that people have when they walk into that room is an immediate smile coming on to their face and that is really lovely to see, just like that. It's what they call a duchenne smile, it's like an involuntary smile which is what you get when you give somebody a bunch of flowers. We tend to get that when we see nature particularly in an unusual setting. Just get people started looking after one or two plants and very quickly people realise the enormous benefit that those plants bring, particularly when you take them away, you see how empty the space suddenly looks. Having plants in the space, just bring one or two in, what you suddenly find is that you become a little bit addicted to looking after them. Before you know it you have a lot more plants than you can ever imagined - that's what my wife tells me!
Jane: I guess that's one thing I would say is that some people, and most of my family are included in this group, actually don't really seem to notice how many plants are in their house. I guess, maybe if I took them all away, they would suddenly be aware and I guess the numbers have been gradually building. There is this issue of plant blindness. Is biophilia able to overcome that?
Oliver: I think ultimately what you're talking about is quite a serious disconnection from nature that happens when we live in cities. Rather shockingly, we spend 90% of our lives indoors, currently 90% of the British population live in urban areas. Of course, when you live in a city, of course you have a disconnection from nature. You're not looking out onto forests and trees and fields and plants and flowers all the time, you're not surrounded by this stuff, so we become disconnected from it. I think that is very dangerous because our health and wellbeing on this planet is directly linked to the health and wellbeing of nature around us on a much wider scale. Spending time outside, whether it's at the beach, in the local park, in the local woodland or forest is really important for just recognising the enormous benefits of nature.
What we're now seeing is health services in England or Scotland prescribing time spent in nature as a means to benefit mental health and this is something that has been going on for some time in Japan where they have a process called shinrin-yoku which translates as forest bathing and it's literally that idea that time prescribed and spent exercising and walking, just very gently, through woods and forests is enormously beneficial for both your psychological and your physiological wellbeing. It's in part the exercise, the fresh air, it's about breathing in these naturally-occurring elements called phytoncides that are emitted from the earth and the trees and the leaves around us. Being in that space, the gentle movement, the colours, the textures have been proven in numerous studies to benefit our wellbeing. I think connecting and recognising the enormous benefit that we have with nature is absolutely fundamental to the wider survival of civilisation and human beings on our planet.
Jane: That's a great message to end on, Oliver Heath. Thank you very much!
Oliver: Thank you, it's been a pleasure to talk to you and I hope you really enjoyed your stay at the hotel.
Jane: I really did, yes. Though I did find myself being so productive that I suddenly realised that it was very late at night and I'd been working away because I was sat so comfortably, surrounded by plants! I suddenly thought: "Gosh, it's really late!" I did sleep really, really well, so that was a good thing.
Oliver: That's great to hear. Lovely!
Jane: I did also find myself doing a bit of plant care because I noticed there were a couple of ferns that were a bit dry, so they were in the sink overnight getting a bit of a drink.
Oliver: Oh, nice. Thank you very much!
Jane: I think that's the nice thing about plants, isn't it? Hopefully it encourages us to bring out our nurturing side. So that happened to me and I was glad to see that they'd perked up overnight and that makes you feel good, which is a wonderful thing if you can make something thrive, then that feels good. So yes, it was great!
Oliver: This idea of thriving. In a way, we filled our room with 150 plants of all different species and the idea is that we wanted to create a real sense of richness and diversity in the room, that in some way mimics the diversity we find when we go into a forest. The immediate inference is that when you walk into the room, this is a space where plant life cannot just survive, but also thrive and flourish and you get that with this immediate, overwhelming wall of green leaves. So if you see the plants can flourish then, we think, maybe humans can too? It does give that sense of this really is a space that can support life and help life to flourish, which I think is a lovely message from the lovely buildings that are so important to our lives.
Jane: Check out the show notes at JanePerrone.com for some pictures of the Productivity Suite and more info on Oliver and biophilia. Now, Meet the Listener!
[music]
Eva: Hello, my name is Eva and I live in Derby, UK. I fell in love with houseplants when I was a child. I had a small cacti collection, but at the moment I'm really obsessed with them. I've got around 100 house plants in a small, one-bedroom flat. To be honest, my partner is not really that happy about it but he still tolerates it, which is great! I also try to do my bit for my community, so I propagate my plants and I sell them in my local ethical whole food shop and all the money from the sales go to their charity of the month.
Jane: Question one. There's a fire and all your plants are about to burn. Which one do you grab as you escape?
Eva: Probably my Golden Pothos because my mum gave it to me and she lives in the Czech Republic and I don't see her as often as I'd like to and every time I see the plant, I think of her.
Jane: Question two. What is your favourite episode of On The Ledge?
Eva: That's definitely got to be episode seven, about chillis, because I really enjoyed the competition between all those helicopter pilots about who was going to grow the hottest chilli. It was really sweet!
Jane: Question three. Which Latin name do you say to impress people?
Eva: To be fair, I don't really use Latin names when I talk to people face-to-face because none of the people I talk to are plant nerds, so I only use common names. But I do use Latin names on the internet when I talk to real plant nerds.
Jane: Question four. Crassulacean acid metabolism, or guttation?
Eva: I would say guttation.
Jane: Question five. Would you rather spend £200 on a variegated Monstera, or £200 on 20 interesting cacti?
Eva: No, that's such a difficult question because variegated Monstera has been on my wish list for over a year! But £200 is way too much money to pay for one plant, so I think I'll go with 20 interesting cacti.
Jane: Thanks Eva, if you want to take part in Meet the Listener, drop a line to OnTheLedgepodcast@gmail.com. Now, we're continuing on the cactus theme with Question of the Week, which comes from Maggie.
Maggie's wondering whether there's any exceptions to the "no watering in winter" rule for cacti and succulents. Specifically, she's using a grow light and does that mean that the plants will need a bit of extra water? Could I be supplementing with too much light? Should the plants have a dormant period and a break? Should you use fertilise when there's new growth in winter?
All great questions. I'm going to give you my own personal experience on this. My plants here in the office, they're anything from 12C up to about 18C depending on whether I'm in here or not, but most of the time they're around 13C to 15C. They're under grow lights 7am to 7pm. They're IKEA VÄXER bulbs, so they are getting extra light but they are getting hardly any water. I think most of them haven't been watered at all since November. There's a couple that have gone a bit wrinkly which I've given a drop of water to, but they will be fine all the way through until spring. Even if they do go a bit wrinkly, generally they can cope with that. It's over-watering they can't cope with.
So my answer would be, if you're using a grow light, then the rule that you don't water in winter should still stand. Observe your plants and see what's going on. If your plants are becoming incredibly wrinkled, then yes they may need some extra light. Certainly, if temperatures are normal room temperature 18C to 21C then the plants may try to put on growth, but, generally speaking, if they're under a grow light, that growth won't get all leggy and horrible, so adjust as you go.
I think in terms of feeding in winter, I would not feed any cacti and succulents in winter. There are these very complicated tables of which cacti and succulents choose to have dormancy in winter and which ones have dormancy in summer. You can look at these and every one I look at tells me different information, so I just observe my plants and if something is growing, actively, then I would give it a bit more water and I probably would give it the very, very, very occasional very weak feed, but remember that cacti and succulents survive on very little in the way of nutrients anyway. With those, you can really get away without adding any fertiliser over the winter time.
So, as I say, the main thing is to observe your plants and what's happening with the things that you're growing. The grow lights shouldn't make the plants go into massive amounts of growth, they'll just stop them being etiolated, that's the plan, to keep any growth that does happen nice and stocky, not all leggy as you would get with plants that are grown in the very low light conditions that we do get in winter in large parts of the world.
The other part of the question - could I be supplementing with too much light? I find it hard to imagine how that would be possible with cacti and succulents, I think most cacti and succulents are adapted to really high light conditions and they're probably not going to be bothered by having some grow lights on them in winter, unless you're literally keeping the grow light 1cm away from the plant which might cause a bit of a problem, most of mine are about 20cm to 30cm away from the plant and that seems to work fine. These plants are so well adapted to the conditions of high light that I don't think the grow lights will cause them any problems.
So I hope that helps. As I say, so often is the case, it's observation, keeping a really good eye on your cacti and succulents over winter. Looking out for problems, you may find mealy bugs emerge from little cracks and crevices. Look out for wrinkly bits and make sure that your plants are happy and that way you should be able to get through the winter okay. The other thing I would say, is if you've got any cacti and succulents that you haven't repotted since you bought them, particularly if you bought them from a non-specialist nursery, I would definitely repot them into something very well drained before you go into the winter period. I know it's a bit late now to say that, but you still could repot now into pretty much dry cactus and succulent potting mix.
I'm seeing so many String of Pearls that are dying because they've been bought by somebody who has left them in the potting mix that they were in and it just isn't right for the plants. So, if that's you, and you've got one of those pots of String of Pearls Curio rowleyanus aka Senecio rowleyanus, that's looking miserable, get it out, dry the roots off and repot it and hopefully your plant should recover, but I'm seeing so many of those at the minute that I thought it was worth mentioning. I'm planning to do a blog post on care of String of Pearls because I'm seeing so many disasters on the internet, so look out for that coming soon.
I hope that helps, Maggie, if you've got a question for On The Ledge drop me a line OnTheLedgepodcast@gmail.com
[music]
Jane: That is all for this week's show and I'll be back next Friday with an extra-special edition. I have done a podcast partnership with RHS podcast and I'm going to be talking houseplants with Matt Pottage, who is the curator of Wisley, no less, and Anne Swithinbank of Gardener's Question Time and we have an absolute blast talking about houseplants. So that episode will be going out on my podcast, and also on the RHS podcast, in a unique collaboration. So I'm looking forward to that episode next week! I know you're going to love it. But, for now, have a great week and I will speak to you before long, plant people! Take care. Bye!
[music]
Jane: The music in this episode is Roll Jordan Roll by The Joy Drops, Chiefs by Jahzzar and I Snost, I Lost by Doctor Turtle. All these tracks are licensed under Creative Commons. See the show notes at JanePerrone.com for details.
Subscribe to On The Ledge via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Player FM, Stitcher, Overcast, RadioPublic and YouTube.
Oliver Heath joins me this week to explain the meaning of the term biophilia, plus we meet listener Eva, and I answer a question about growing cacti under growlights in winter.
This week’s guest
Oliver Heath is a biophilic designer and head of sustainable architecture and interior design practice Oliver Heath Design.
He designed a plant-packed Productivity Suite at the Leman Locke hotel in London last November for The Joy of Plants, former On The Ledge sponsor and the UK arm of the Flower Council of Holland.
Patreon Ledge End and Superfans: once you have listened to this episode, head over to Patreon to listen to my interview with Michael Perry about his Tranquil Suite - and the moss rug!
Have a look at the notes below as you listen….
Jane Perrone in the Productivity Suite.
Want to donate to the rescue and recovery efforts in Australia? Here’s a set of links to donate.
The originator of the term biophilia was American naturalist Edward O Wilson: he defined it as “the urge to affiliate with other forms of life”. He wrote a book on the subject.
Ulrich’s study of bladder patients and the effect of their outlook on recovery is detailed here.
The moss mat in Michael Perry’s Tranquil Suite was designed and made by Scaped Nature in Norwich. You can watch a video of about the Tranquil Suite here.
Learn more about forest bathing, aka shinrin-yoku.
Here’s more on the ‘duchenne smile’ Oliver Heath mentions.
Check out more details about The Joy of Plants’ three plant-packed hotel suites here.
QUESTION OF THE WEEK
Maggie wanted to know whether cacti and succulents grown under growlights in winter need some water and fertilisation. I think this very much depends on the temperature they are under. My succulents are under growlights right now, at between 12-16C most of the time. They aren’t growing, which is how it should be: but if they were in a room at 21C they would be trying to grow and may need more water. If plants become seriously wrinkly, some water may be needed, but remember, a dry wrinkled plant will revive when you begin watering in spring: a rotten one won’t! If your potting mix is right, the plants should be fine over winter, but I am seeing so many images on social media of string of pearls (Curio rowleyanus) bought this year and not repotted in the right mix that are rotting away. Blogpost to come on that soon!
Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue!
HOW TO SUPPORT ON THE LEDGE
Contributions from On The Ledge listeners help to pay for all the things that have made the show possible over the last few years: equipment, travel expenses, editing, admin support and transcription.
Want to make a one-off donation? You can do that through my ko-fi.com page, or via Paypal.
Want to make a regular donation? Join the On The Ledge community on Patreon! Whether you can only spare a dollar or a pound, or want to make a bigger commitment, there’s something for you: see all the tiers and sign up for Patreon here.
The Crazy Plant Person tier just gives you a warm fuzzy feeling of supporting the show you love.
The Ledge End tier gives you access to two extra episodes a month, known as An Extra Leaf, as well as ad-free versions of the main podcast on weeks where there’s a paid advertising spot, and access to occasional patron-only Zoom sessions.
My Superfan tier earns you a personal greeting from me in the mail including a limited edition postcard, as well as ad-free episodes.
If you like the idea of supporting On The Ledge on a regular basis but don't know what Patreon's all about, check out the FAQ here: if you still have questions, leave a comment or email me - ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. If you're already supporting others via Patreon, just click here to set up your rewards!
If you prefer to support the show in other ways, please do go and rate and review On The Ledge on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you listen. It's lovely to read your kind comments, and it really helps new listeners to find the show. You can also tweet or post about the show on social media - use #OnTheLedgePodcast so I’ll pick up on it!
CREDITS
This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, I Snost, I Lost by Doctor Turtle and Chiefs by Jahzzar.