Episode 274: black olive/shady lady/Bucera bucidas tree
Each black olive tree has its own unique shape. Photograph: Joop Huner/Fachjan.
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TRANSCRIPT
[0:01] Jane Perrone (AD)
If you're a gardener, you'll know that bare soil is the enemy of fertility, and that's where cover crops come in, and thanks to show sponsors True Leaf Market, we have you sorted for cover crops this autumn. True Leaf Market have been selling heirloom and organic garden seeds since 1974, and they've got a great selection of cover crop seeds, including their all-purpose garden cover crop mix, the most popular cover crop they sell to home gardeners. No idea where to start with cover crops? Well, True Leaf Market has a free PDF guide to cover crops. Just visit trueleafmarket.com and search for cover crop guide. You can order your cover crops online now at www.trueleafmarket.com and use promo code OTL10 to save $10 on orders of $50 or more. So visit www.trueleafmarket.com and enter OTL10 for $10 off your first order. Check out the show notes at janeperrone.com for more.
[1:15] Music.
[1:33] Jane Perrone
Hi, how the devil are you? I'm Jane Perrone, this is a Houseplant Podcast, it's time for On The Ledge
[1:41] Music.
[1:47] Jane Perrone
Welcome to the show, whether you are a first time listener or an old hand. In this week's show, I'm going to be talking about the shady lady, the black olive, the Bucida Bucerus, the plant that has so many names. My head is in a spin, but we'll be finding out all about this indoor tree, where you can grow it and is it the next fiddle leaf fig? Plus we hear from listener Nicole in Meet the Listener and I answer a question about an ice queen. No, I'm not talking about Jane Torville. Gosh, that's dated me, hasn't it?
[2:30] As the phrase adapted from the book of Ecclesiastes goes, there is nothing new under the sun. And this applies often to houseplants too. But I have to admit that when I first saw a plant called the shady lady or the black olive or Bucera Buceras start to be talked about out as an indoor landscaping tree, this was a new one on me. My interest really started to be piqued when I saw a piece in Real Homes in 2021 asking, is this houseplant the new fiddle leaf fig? Well, that's a big claim because of course, the fiddle leaf fig has been the tree of the moment, well the tree of the last five years, I would say, in people's houses, so could this be a new contender on the houseplant tree scene?
[3:26] Well let's not get ahead of ourselves, first we need to figure out what this tree is actually called, where it comes from, how it grows and all that useful information that can get us really tuned in to this particular species. So let's start with geography, where is it from? Well if you go to the Plants of the World online site, part of the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew site, which is a really good resource for accurate information about plant species, you'll find that the actual current accepted scientific name for this plant is Terminalia Buceras, and its native range is Central Mexico to Colombia and the Caribbean. But the text also notes that it has been introduced as a tree in Florida, so it also grows there. Pretty similar climate. Now, if you're assuming that the common name Black Olive has been given because this is a relative of the Black Olive, well, you've obviously not been listening to this show long enough because it's well documented in On the Ledge that common names, they lie, they tell you things that aren't true. And that's the case with this common name. This plant is not a close relative of Olea europaea, the olive species that produces lovely oils and so on, for us that comes from the Mediterranean. So the name has just been co-opted because oh we've got this new tree we want to market and hey it looks a bit like an olive tree.
[5:03] So how does it grow in the wild? Well its height really varies, it can get up to 20 or so metres, around sort of 70-80 feet and it's a tree that's often found in coastal areas. It's very salt tolerant which incidentally is one of the reasons which makes it a good houseplant. You'll find that's also true of things like the kentia palm. That salt tolerance tends to help out those plants when they're planted in a pot and there tends to be a build-up of mineral salts.
[5:34] And it does have some practical uses. It's widely used in the timber industry. The wood is called jacaro or oxhorn bucida and it's used for various purposes, building and decking, and that's because it's very, very tough wood. It also happens to be very strong in tannins, the leaves and the bark and the fruit, which I guess could be the other reason why it's called black olive because it does have little fruits, they don't look much like olives, but there we go. It's full of tannins and I did find an article about how there's a particular caterpillar that feeds on this plant that might enhance these tannins and cause staining when it's planted as a shade tree, as it often is in places like Florida, I guess hence the other name Shady Lady. And I did even find a reference to this plant in the catalogue of the Great Exhibition, which took place in 1851 which stated that Bucidabucurus or Olivia, as it was called at the time, is a strong useful wood, used for making shingles from two to four feet in diameter. So there we go. It's obviously been a plant and a tree that has been known in the world of horticulture for some time. But how is it being used now and should you be making room for it in your home? My guest this week is Joop Huner, who is a veteran of the Dutch nursery scene and he has loads of experience of working with this tree with different nurseries, including Fachjan Project Plants, whose glasshouses extend to around 100,000 metres squared. So I started by asking Joop about this tree and when it first appeared on the Dutch plant scene.
Joop Huner
It has been around many years. I know that since about the mid-90s they were imported for the first time in the UK and in Europe, in Holland. They are imported from Florida and what they do is they grow them out on the fields in Florida, and what they do is they put them in pots to make a nice root ball, put them in a shade area to help them to adapt to a lower light level and then they're shipped. And since then actually it's becoming very popular and I always say the plant sells itself. If you see a bucida tree in the greenhouse and you're looking for a tree or a ficus or something else, that's it. That's what I want. And that's most of the time a black olive because it's very attractive because of the, density of the leaves, the size of the leaves, the shape, the character of the tree. It's very decorative. I call it a green cloud tree because it looks like there are green clouds of leaves hanging on the stem.
Jane Perrone
I've seen this described as the next fiddle leaf fig. Now I'm personally, visually I'm not that keen on the look of the fiddle leaf fig. This is a very different kind of leaf and effect that we're getting. As you say it's this much more fine leaves. How do the two compare though in terms of how you can use them and care?
Joop Huner
The fiddle leaf fig is very popular an the advantage of a fiddle leaf fig, I think, is that the fiddle leaf figs are available as a character plant at 1 metre 50, 1 metre 80, you can put them at home or in an office, in a regular pot size. And actually the black olive trees only look nice starting at about 3 meters, 3.5 meters.And then they're still skinny. And they're getting more and more popular even in that size and even if not that majestic look. So the gap widens in between the Fiddle leaf fig and the black olive is that they are popular, but the Fiddle leaf fig is still a very popular plant. But of course it has its, yeah if you like it or not, but it has the large leaves and glossy and it's very, bold, while the bucida is completely the opposite. All the time when I'm in the greenhouse making photos and I'm walking there at 11 o'clock and you make photos, I keep making photos because because you walk from one side or do the other side, you see the light going through it.And one of the most important things, why it is becoming so important, that a lot of architects like to have to look inside of outdoors.There is actually no other tree that could be used inside, but look so much as an outdoor tree. That's why they are so popular. I guess maybe in the UK, with our architecture, use of the black olive is kind of limited unless you live in a lovely house with a huge high ceilinged atrium which not many of us do. I imagine possibly in Europe and possibly, well more likely in North America, there's a lot more homes that could accommodate a three meter tall tree in some area that would work. I'm thinking of my 1930s house and thinking I would have nowhere to put that but I can see the appeal of a tree that looks like it could be outside, that's an interesting point.
Joop Huner
But it's important that it needs enough light, not direct sunlight, but light is important. But again, that character of the bushira, what is so nice about it, actually only comes when you have a tree of three meters plus, until about 12 meters. So inside, you can grow them at about two and a half meters, but then you still have two and a half meters, so you need a ceiling of at least three meters and enough light. What a lot of people don't know about it is, even in the interiorscape basis, that the root ball has to be moist continuously. Once you skip that and it dries out it goes away from you and it doesn't get back anymore. So important is and that is the big thing and the attention what as a supplier of the plants to the interior scape business always tell people don't sink in liters of water check the root ball, if it is wet enough and don't let water stand in the pot because you know to sink oh then I'll make sure that it is enough now, because that is not good either. But the important is that the root ball must be moist in winter and in summer. Colleagues at Fachjan have been flying to various projects in Europe where they use bucida, large trees, 6, 8, 12 meters tall and some of them died. And that 9 out of 10 is the problem, is the lack of moisture. Because the interiorscape people always say, oh, you know, we only come once a week and that's enough, yeah, but not for that tree. So it's not a difficult plant, but you need to think about it.
Jane Perrone
Say you've gone for the minimum size, maybe of two and a half to three metres. Presumably then its trunk is at that point quite, still quite narrow?
Joop Huner
No, no, it's a skinny stem, honestly. They look nice because they still have that lush, light green, thin or small clouds, I would say, of leaves. But it's not as dense and impressive what you see at the larger. If they are about three and a half, four metres, you can have already a kind of thicker stem and then if you have a decorative plant. But for at home, the two and a half metre is nice, it's elegant, but it is not as impressive. And one of the things also is not every plant does that, but it sounds negative, but it is in the drop leaves throughout the year, but that's like a ficus or another house plant because it's a continuous green plant like Ilex outside, you know, it's always dropping some leaves. So you have to think about that. So we advise always, for example, not to place it in a restaurant. If you have a restaurant, it's an atrium, and they think, oh, we have to put three, we're putting three bucephalus, black olive trees. You have a problem that in your soup, sometimes a leaf of a black olive.
[13:42] Music.
[13:53] Jane Perrone (AD)
This episode of On The Ledge is sponsored by Better Help. Have you ever had that scenario where you're so tired but you're lying in bed and your brain just won't shut up? Or you're just about to go into a very important work meeting and something just keeps on niggling at you and you can't concentrate. Yep, been there, done that. Cursed my overactive brain. Well, if you're anything like me, you've probably tried a million things to deal with a brain that's a cross between Seabiscuit and Shergar. One thing I have found extremely helpful is therapy. But how do you find the time for that? BetterHelp makes therapy flexible. It's entirely online so you can schedule sessions with your therapist to suit your own schedule. You just, need to fill out a few questions online to get started. Better Help matches you with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for any reason for no additional charge. Get a break from your thoughts with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.com forward slash Today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash OTL.
[15:25] Jane Perrone
More indoor tree chat to come, but now time for a quick Q&A.
[15:30] This comes from Amy and Amy wants to know about the Peperomia cultivar, 'Ice Queen'. So what can we find out about this cultivar? Well, not a lot, unhelpfully I'm afraid, Amy. So this is a cultivar of the wonderful species Peperomia argyreia, the Watermelon Peperomia, named for the silver and white patterning on the leaves, which gives it that look of a watermelon skin. Except in this cultivar, Ice Queen, the silver really dominates, just leaving the main ribs green and the center where the petiole meets the leaf blade green, so you end up with this very, very silvery leaf. Now I've not been able to find a patent for this particular plant. I can see.
[16:29] References coming in to this Ice Queen cultivar in around 2022 last year. It's being sold by the Eden Collection which is a popular Netherlands plant brand and this plant seems to have got a bit of a premium on the regular Argyraea as any new and exciting cultivar might do. You tend to find this plant is slightly more expensive, although it's still not that expensive. You know, I've seen it for around 12 euros, 12 pounds, anything up to about 17 pounds, 20 pounds maximum I would say.
The other name that Amy has seen it referred to as is the giant watermelon peperomia because the leaves are quite large. So what's going on? Well, I suspect this is one of these cultivars that's very new to the scene, hasn't really been registered, but other than that I'm fairly ignorant as to this plant and I would love to know more. So yeah, if you know the story behind Peperomia Ice Queen, do let me know. Sometimes this is the problem with plants, particularly house plants, that just the information requires some digging and some asking the right people, and in this case I haven't managed to get any good answers for you. So it's a bit of a busted flush this question, but maybe putting the word out on this podcast will enable us to find somebody who knows more about the origins of 'Ice Queen'So do look out for that one and tell me what other peperomias you're enjoying at the moment. And if you've got a question for On The Ledge, drop me a line on theledgepodcast.gmail.com.
And now let's hear from this week's listener in Meet The Listener. It's Nicole.
[18:15] Nicole/Meet the Listener
I'm Nicole, self-confessed plant lover but plant killer and founder of Nicole's Jungle, where I make miniature versions of all your favourite houseplants, handcrafted from paper.
Jane Perrone When did you get into houseplants and why?
Nicole
I joined the plant community around summertime 2019, so about four years ago, after looking for just one plant to fill an empty corner in my living room. And I found this picture of an incredible plant wall on Pinterest and decided I wanted to recreate it in my house and I was hooked.
Jane Perrone What's the latest addition to your houseplant collection?
Nicole
Well I've exercised quite a lot of self-control this year after being on a self-imposed plant ban, because I've run out of room, but my latest addition is an Anthurium Regale, which had, been on my wish list for quite a while. It's a little baby and it's taking time to grow up, but I'm keeping it alive right now, so I'm not touching anything. Complete the sentence, I love my house plants because... Aside from being a way to bring my home to life, they've introduced me to just the most wonderful community. I'd never have known before I started collecting plants that this community existed, and I've just made so many plant pals over the last four years, that's definitely the best part of it.
Jane Perrone
Who is your houseplant hero?
Nicole
Oh, this is a toughie because I've got quite a few. I guess for me, I really admire some of the people that have been able to take their plant passion and turn it into a business. And there's a few people I could name who have done that, that I really admire. But if I have to pick one, I'll go with Tony from Not Another Jungle. He's doing an incredible job at building his business and supporting the local community. And he's a great plant pal too.
Jane Perrone
Name your plantagonist: the plant you simply cannot get along with. I have a three-strike rule with plants, so if I buy one and I kill it three times I'm not allowed it again, and there are two or three that I've done that with. I'm on strike three right now with a maidenhair fern that's just had a down-to-the-stump, haircut and luckily it's coming back this time, so fingers crossed for that one. I absolutely, know that I don't have the right conditions in my home for this plant and I'm an underwaterer, which I know doesn't help, but I just love the maidenhead ferns, so pray with me for this one.
[20:27] Jane Perrone
And now it's time to get back to my chat with Joop and I was surprised to discover that losing all this evergreen tree's leaves is actually a good thing for the nurseries that are raising these plants. Let's find out why. We get the bucephalus in from Florida. Now, one thing is important to say, it's funny, they arrive after two weeks of shipping, and they drop 100% of their leaves.
[20:58] After arrival because they have been in the dark. And funny enough, we like that because then you get all the new leaves grown in the greenhouse under lower light conditions as the fields in Florida. So that is important. But they come, if you have 50 Bucylla trees of four meter, they're all different. None of them are the same. Like in ficus, you can have more, you know, clones of each other, you know, of the same size, four meter stem and a round ball of of three meters diameter. In Bushida, no, they're all different. So you cannot trim them because that may be a little bit, but then they don't look any nicer. You have to keep that natural shape, I think. Now the temperature is also important that it can stand about a temperature of 15 to 25 degrees Celsius.
[21:49] Yeah, so you don't wanna be allowing it to get in cold, really cold drafts. I'm thinking of people with drafty hallways. I wonder whether the name Black Olive has come about because I have seen so much on social media about actual olive trees indoors. Now, I've always thought that was a big no-no because they need heck amounts of light. Challenges of Growing Mediterranean Plants Indoors
[22:09] Do actual olive trees work as an indoor plant? You see there's a lot, but it's a disaster because the problem is you have them for one year, they are nice, but the real olive tree from Italy, you can put them indoors, but then there are two things important, light, and you need, for example, a shopping mall that is not heated, that you have a low temperature, almost to freezing in the winter, because if it's too warm in the winter, it will continue to grow and to make leaves, and it losing completely its shape and then you have to trim them, but the leaves get too large, the twigs get too skinny and too long, and that doesn't make it any nicer. So I always advise, don't put.
[22:59] Maybe other people disagree, but don't put any Mediterranean type plant in a continuously heated area. All the plants which grow, which come from Italy or Spain, they will do it for one year and then they grow. Actually, they don't stop growing and they need, because of that cold, that period of rest. If they don't have that, in a real olive tree, in two or three years, you can, yeah, it looks terrible. You have to remove it, it dries out and then it's losing its shape. And there comes the black olive that doesn't look like an Italian olive tree, but it has other beauties, but it's more focused for the interior. I often see people saying, I'm growing lavender indoors or I'm growing rosemary indoors. And I think, no, you're not, you're bringing that plant in temporarily because it's going to die because it's a lavender and it needs, there are just some plants, I guess in the past you know when you look at old indoor gardening books you know there were recommendations for certain plants that we wouldn't really recommend now because it did probably get freezing cold in those houses but we don't let our houses get that cold now do we where you or indeed the light isn't good enough but I always cringe when I see lavender recommended oftentimes because I've not found a lavender that can survive. One of the plants which are nice also for Podocarpus I don't know if you know that. Podocarpus latifolius, that is a dark green, looks like an indoor yew. And they come also in kind of six metre cylinders or something like that, and they can be nice, but they're also, they need that colder period, not completely to frost, but they like that variation in temperature. And that stimulates the growth, with continuous 25 degrees.
[24:52] It's not good for that type of plant. Say you don't have a house that gets particularly cold at night and you don't have enough light or space for something like that black olive, is there anything you can grow that really gives you that specimen size that will be happy under those conditions? What I like is myself, and they come in smaller sizes, also the Schefflera, it's not a ficus type, but it's a Schefflera 'Amata'. They come in sizes of one metre, three in a pot, one in a pot, they make the larger leaves. But actually they, under kind of mediocre circumstances, they perform very well.
[25:32] It's not a ficus because it has hand-shaped leaves. You know the SChefflera amata, it's a handshape.
Jane Perrone
Yes, I know the hand-shaped leaves, the kind of part compound palmate leaves. I mean, they're a classic, aren't they really? You can't, they're very tough.
Joop Huner
They're tough and they especially in the past it's called the actinophylla and they developed, in Florida one of the nurseries I know they developed the amata and actually that is that is performing well. Another plant what is nice what I like and you see it more and more is Strelitzia, Strelitzia nicolai. It's actually the the white bird of paradise and that I like that also and that's, but the problem there also is the height because you buy it at 1 meter 50, and then the new leaves come out and it's suddenly it's 2 metre 50.
[26:26] But I like that feel of the plant because of that upright shape and again it doesn't make very much of a flower inside, but as a plant I think it performs well. And of course, you know, then the good old, maybe you don't like them, but this is Sansevieria, you know, you cannot kill it.
Jane Perrone
I love Sansevieria. I love Sansevieria. And you can get some really tall ones of those, can't you? Is it Superclone, the really tall one? Yes, yes. Up to 1 metre 50.
Joop Huner
I saw one on the cover of your book.
Jane Perrone
Yes. It's a really great plant. And you can get some really, really tall ones, which are amazing. I think they're stunning. I think we really, we're only just scratching the surface of the sansevierias in terms of their use as houseplants. So yeah, I'm hoping there's gonna be even more becoming available. I'm on a few sansevieria Facebook groups where you see plants in their native habitat and that's amazing and some of them are big, you know? So, well, I don't think I'm gonna be buying a shady lady. I'll probably be buying more sansevieria but I don't think a black olive is for me in my relatively low-ceilinged home, but it's really interesting to hear how it's being used. So thank you so much for joining me today.
Joop Huner
You're welcome. It was a pleasure.
[27:43] Music.
[27:50] Jane Perrone
Thanks so much to my guest, Joop, and do check out the show notes at janeperrone.com for lots more Shady Lady links. I'll link to everything that's going to keep you informed about this particular species and there you'll also find transcripts for episodes of the show and information about how to support the show via Patreon, leaving reviews and all that good stuff. And don't forget to sign up for The Plant Ledger, my newsletter. It's out today and has loads of stuff in it, including featured follow this week with The Plant Parlogram, wonderful, arroyd collector and Instagrammer, my thoughts on the green flags and red flags for houseplant shops and news about everything from the Garden Museum's Houseplant Festival which is coming up in October to National Indoor Plant Week. So you can subscribe if you go to janeperrone.com I will be back in two weeks. I hope I still have a voice because I'm recording the audiobook.
[29:00] Music.
[29:14] Jane Perrone So I'm doing a lot of talking at the moment. Twas ever thus. Have a great couple of weeks and I'll speak to you soon. Bye!
[29:24] Music.
[29:46] Jane Perrone The music you heard in this episode was Roll Jordan Roll by The Joy Drops, the road we used to travel when we were kids by Komiku, and Overthrown by Josh Woodward. The ad music is Nothing Like Captain Crunch by Broke for Free and Candlelight by Jahzzar. All tracks are licensed under Creative Commons. Visit the show notes for details.
[30:11] Music.
The correct scientific name for this tree is Terminalia buceras. Photograph: Joop Huner/Fachjan.
I find out about the indoor tree that’s being marketed as ‘the next fiddle leaf fig’ with guest Joop Huner and find out what it needs to thrive. Plus I tackle a Peperomia question and we hear from listener Nicole.
This week’s guest
Joop Huner is an expert in the Dutch plant scene and works with various nurseries as a consultant including Fachjan Project Plants.
Chapters
0:02:30 Introducing the Shady Lady: A New Houseplant Contender?
0:05:03 Growth, Practical Uses, and Historical References of the Black Olive Tree
0:12:50 Interview with Joop Huner part one
0:15:25 Q&A: Exploring the Peperomia Ice Queen Cultivar
0:18:15 Meet The Listener with Nicole
0:20:27 0:12:50 Interview with Joop Huner part two
0:22:08 Can you grow a real olive indoors?
0:24:27 Other large plants you can grow indoors
0:29:46 Music credits
Check the show notes as you listen…
This tree grows wild in Central America and the Caribbean and is naturalised in Florida. You can see a map of its native range on the Kew Plants of the World Online site here.
It grows mostly in coastal regions at low altitudes and is very salt tolerant (one of the reasons why it makes a good potted plant). They vary in height but can reach at least 20m (65ft) tall. There’s more information about the way this tree grows in the wild here.
It has many names including Bucida buceras, black olive, shady lady, jucaro and oxhorn bucida but its current scientific name is Terminalia buceras.
In the catalogue of the Great Exhibition of 1851, this species is listed as being used for making shingles.
The leaves and bark are full of tannins and when used as shade trees they can cause staining on asphalt - I found this interesting paper on this subject explaining the role of a caterpillar in this process.
This species has been touted as the next fiddle leaf fig (Ficus lyrata) in various articles including this one - Joop finds that bucida only really looks its best once it reaches around 2.5-3m tall, whereas smaller fiddle leaf figs of say 1.5m do work.
When it comes to bucida care, Joop says the rootball must be kept continuously damp in summer and winter, and it needs plenty of light.
The timber from the tree is very tough and used for building, decking, and railway sleepers. More info on its timber here.
The trees on sale in Europe tend to be shipped from Florida where they are grown. Usually they lose all their leaves initially, but this means they grow back with leaves that are adapted to the lower light levels.
It is not closely related to the actual olive, Olea europaea but it has been called black olive for its superficial resemblance.
It’s worth noting that actual olives never do well in the long term indoors despite the hype about it on social media.
If you are looking for a treelike houseplant that’s a bit easier to care for, Joop Huner suggests Schefflera ‘Amate’ and Strelitzia nicolai.
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Better Help
Have you ever had that scenario where you're so tired, but you're lying in bed, and your brain just won't shut up? Or you're just about to go into a very important work meeting, and something just keeps on niggling at you, and you can't concentrate? One thing I have found extremely helpful is therapy. But how do you find the time for that? Better Help makes therapy flexible. It’s entirely online, so you can schedule sessions with your therapist to suit your own schedule. You just need to fill out a few questions online to get started. You’re matched with a licenced therapist and you can switch therapists at any time, for any reason, for no additional charge. Get a break from your thoughts with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.com/otl today to get 10% off your first month.
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CREDITS
This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, The Road We Use To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Overthrown by Josh Woodward. The ad music is Nothing Like Captain Crunch by Broke For Free and Candlelight by Jahzzar.