Episode 250: Hoyas with Betsy Begonia
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TRANSCRIPT
Jane Perrone 00:15
Well hello there. This is On The Ledge Podcast. I'm Jane Perrone. It's 2023. And we're still talking about houseplants. Oh, welcome to the show, the 250th episode of On The Ledge. Flipping nora, that's a lot of episodes. And in this episode, I talked to Betsy Begonia about the wonderful, wonderful world of hoyas. Plus, I'm answering a question about hoyas too. What are those weird marks on my hoya? Stay tuned to find out. Thank you to Holly and Isabel, who became Crazy Plant People over the festive break and Abby upgraded from Crazy Plant Person to Ledge End. And I must give a special shout out to all 60 of my current Crazy Plant People. In some respects, these are the most altruistic listeners of all because they give me roughly a pound, a dollar, a euro, whatever your unit of currency a month for absolutely nothing in return, just because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling inside to support the show. And that's rather nice of them. You must admit, if you want to join those people you can do. If you want to give me a one off donation via ko-fi.com or Paypal, you can do so. Many podcasts have a whole team of people behind them. But it is literally just me and my assistant Kelly, who works for me four hours a week. So it's a skeleton team. Any bits of cash you can throw our way would be welcome. If everybody who listened to the show gave me a pound a month, then I would be able to do incredible things with the show. So just think about that if you have the opportunity. And of course if you don't have the funds, absolutely fine. There are loads of other ways of supporting this show. Give me a mention on Twitter or social media of any kind. Tell your friends and share the On The Ledge love. And also just to say my newsletter, The Plant Ledger came out today, you can go to janeperrone.com/ledger to read that and all the back issues and also to subscribe and get your free guide to dealing with fungus gnats.
Jane Perrone 02:42
Just occasionally, you meet another planty person who really makes you think, darn, I wish they lived around the corner from me rather than in another country, because they're just so very marvellous. And that was the case when I finally got to chat to Betsy Begonia, who I've followed and admired for a long time. In this chat, we cover loads of ground, a lot of hoya chats because that's one of Betsy's enthusiasms in life. But even if you don't like hoyas, I think you will get a lot of fun out of this chat. A teeny bit of context here. We do mention my interview with Felix Horne. That's the UK's National Collection holder of hoyas. You can go back and listen to that in episode 244. And all the other experts and scientists who are mentioned in this episode if you don't catch the names, head on over to the show notes at janeperrone.com where you will find all the info and I also add transcripts for all episodes. These go up as soon as I can get them up there. So if you're not listening to the show, the day goes out do check back for the transcripts.
Betsy Begonia 04:03
My name is Betsy I'm also known as Betsy Begonia. I have a YouTube channel all about houseplant love and care. And I also have a shop where I sell rare hoyas called hoyamygosh.com
Jane Perrone 04:18
Welcome Betsy. It's great to have you on the show. I think you were one of the first Youtube houseplant people that I came across. There's dozens of them now probably hundreds. Where did this all start? And how did you get into houseplants?
Betsy Begonia 04:31
I am one of the OGs, especially when it comes to Hoyas. And talking about those. It was in 2018 I would I got really into plants for the first time in my life. I always had a jade plant throughout my life. Someone would always gift me I would always adopt a jade plant. And they kind of followed me around but I never took plant care very seriously. And then I moved into this already furnished apartment in Paris. It was a super cool apartment with like, leather club chairs and stainless steel furniture and furnishings, it was a really nice space. But I always felt like there was, it was just too cold. It was just missing something. And I found a Dieffenbachia in like the basement of a hardware store or something, and I was like, 'You know what, I'm gonna take that home'. And it just changed everything, just having a plant in the room. It gave a little burst of colour, but it also added this warmth, that everything was really lacking. And so it was pretty much downhill from there.
Jane Perrone 05:38
Or indeed uphill.
Betsy Begonia 05:40
Yeah. If we're talking about speed, downhill.
Jane Perrone 05:45
It's amazing how that happens. And even though I've been growing houseplants for many, many, many, many years, I still feel like this exponential growth of the past, you know, since I've had the podcast has been quite something and it's only just kind of settling down now. And you find yourself buying plants that you just regret for reasons of like, why my sort of my Boutique Collection of houseplants has suddenly included this plant, this kind of outlier plant that's completely different from everything else I grow needs completely different care. Why did I buy this? Maybe that's just me. But I'm glad to have another hoya lover on the show. I'm un-embarrassed to say that, you know, this show is probably a little bit hoya heavy, but that's okay.
Betsy Begonia 06:31
Most channels have become hoya heavy. There's something about them.
Jane Perrone 06:36
Yeah. And I feel pleased that I was kind of there, like you were, before they kind of got trendy when they were still kind of rejected as something quite, quite old fashioned. I guess we could say.
Betsy Begonia 06:48
Yeah, I didn't even know that there was a sort of house plant culture. I had bought that Dieffenbachia, but I didn't know what it was. There was no label. And so I went on Reddit. And I think it was like, What's this plant? Something like that some subreddit, dedicated to identification. And I asked and a few people told me Oh, it's Dieffenbachia. Hey, by the way, you should come on over to the other subreddit, r/houseplants and r/plantclinic, you know, and I was like, wow, that's this. There's like a whole community of people who just enjoy plants and share photos of plants. And I, that's really when it started. And then, you know, I had, suddenly I had maranta and pothos. And I started on, you know, the easy stuff. I didn't move on to the hard stuff right away. But then I started to get into Hoya. And...
Jane Perrone 07:42
And that's where it all really kicked off. Because heck,
Betsy Begonia 07:45
My goodness, my goodness.
Jane Perrone 07:46
You've got a plant shop now. I mean, did you ever envisage this would be the scenario.
Betsy Begonia 07:50
No. And in fact, when I started the channel, people would often ask me, if I wanted to have a shop, and I was like, no, like, I have a full time job. This is just something I do for fun. The YouTube channel was really just for fun. You know, it was my hobby. I liked to make people smile and laugh. I like to be goofy. And it was inspired because I was watching some plant YouTubers, I think it was mainly like Danielle Tells because she was talking about hoyas, and a couple of others that I can't remember. But I thought, why like, I feel like somebody could do this and make it more fun. Like this needs to be more fun, and maybe a little bit funny even. And so that's kind of what propelled me to start my own channel. And just tried to change it up a bit, be goofy make people laugh. And it was very fulfilling. And then suddenly it exploded because Jenna Marbles mentioned my channel on her houseplant tour video.
Jane Perrone 08:59
Now, Jenna Marbles. I'm an old lady. So like this. She's a she's a famous. She's a, my kids would just be laughing at this point. She's a famous YouTuber, isn't she?
Betsy Begonia 09:10
You are not much older than me. Yes, she was like an OG. I can't believe I'm using that term twice. She made YouTube videos a long time ago. And I remember when I moved to Paris in 2011. Gosh, was a lonely. Oh, so lonely because you think you know, you have this idea. Like I'm gonna move to Paris. And everyone's gonna love me and I speak the language perfectly. That's absolutely not how it ever goes. And so I would just sit in my little chambre de bonne, my little apartment. And I would watch Jenna Marbles videos. And it's, you know, you get that parasocial relationships thing going on. And it was just so nice, her videos really lifted my spirits and I watched her all the time. And it just felt like so full circle. For that to happen years later, I think it was 2018 or maybe early 2019 that she did like a houseplant tour in her home. And she gave my channel a shout out. And I was just like, oh my gosh, like she she gave me so much and now I'm giving to her too.
Jane Perrone 10:24
Full circle. I love it. And I like what you said about about comedy as well. Now, I never intended to make my podcast funny, but I have had a lot of reviews where people say, Jane, you really make me laugh. And I just it's been quite rewarding because I've, my husband is the joke cracker. I, ask me to tell a joke, and I cannot tell a joke. But apparently, I, maybe it's just Americans, like who find America who find British things funny, I don't know. But I have, you know, been complimented on people finding the podcast quite entertaining. And funny. And I think that's something that we've, as you say, we're kind of somewhat missing in the houseplant world. I had a daydream the other day about doing like a stand up routine about houseplants would that be crazy? I can see you doing a brilliant stand up routine about houseplants actually.
Betsy Begonia 11:16
I have had people say that, but I thought you know how niche. It's so niche.
Jane Perrone 11:23
Audience of two.
Betsy Begonia 11:24
Exactly.
Jane Perrone 11:25
Well I don't know, if there's demand out there, then maybe we'll hear from people and you know, we should make it happen. But I just I don't know. I mean, then again, you know, I think you know, men feel the right to stand up and do stand up about all kinds of niche things. I don't know, there's probably some very niche stand ups. I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
Betsy Begonia 11:43
Yeah I could I could do a two man show with Miro from Basie Plants.
Jane Perrone 11:48
Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's potential there, there is potential. But anyway, they were going off on a tangent as usual. Let's keep talking about hoyas. I mean, it's quite a big jump from growing hoyas to then going down the route of opening a shop. How has that been? How's that been treating you?
Jane Perrone 12:09
And I imagine that there's a ripe market for it because hoyas are so popular. Do you ship just in France? Or are you shipping overseas too?
Betsy Begonia 12:09
I decided last year that I, I mean, I was already selling hoyas to people, you know, put a post on Facebook or something. Or if I just knew someone who was collecting hoyas, we could do an exchange, things like that. But I decided I just wanted to do it all above board and create a website. Because it's such a hassle to develop relationships and sell plants on Facebook. Everybody wants to haggle. And you know, it's you have to keep track of everything. You have to post photos every single time. And I thought you know what, this would just be so much easier if I had a website. And if I had a website, I could write the content for it because I really enjoy writing the cute little descriptions for each hoya and giving some information about the care requirements, etc. So it just seemed like a really wonderful project for me. And I just decided I wanted to be the main hoya boutique here in France, and specialise in the more rare varieties of Hoyas and things like that.
Betsy Begonia 13:25
I ship throughout the entire EU and to Switzerland, and Liechtenstein you know, for anybody in Liechtenstein.
Jane Perrone 13:32
Well, all my Liechtenstein listeners will be delighted about that.
Betsy Begonia 13:35
I'm so happy because those countries will accept the EU passport, the plant passport, so I can send there. And then hopefully in the spring, I will start shipping to the UK and Norway. And I would like to start shipping to the US, Canada is a little bit more complicated. Because Canadians have to apply for a permit. And then they have to send it to me, I'm going to sign it, send it back to that, you know, I know there are a lot of Americans who are begging me to send hoyas to the US. So hopefully in the spring, I'll be able to do that. But right now it's just the EU.
Jane Perrone 14:11
You're into the rare hoyas, but I know that you're not snobbish about your hoyas too. Give me some favourites from your collection.
Betsy Begonia 14:20
My all time favourite is still the the first hoya that I ever bought, which is Hoya krimson princess or Hoya rubra. It's the inner variegated Hoya carnosa and it's got those pink that, I'm looking at it right now. It's got those pink lines and I just think it's a really lovely Hoya. But gosh darn it if that thing does not succumb to root rot, just overnight. So I've had I've had my ups and downs with that plant, and I did lose the original one after saving it from root rot three times. And then this past year, I started looking for it because I thought I really miss that hoya it's one of my favourites. I was looking everywhere I could not find it. It used to be in all of the greenhouses and all of plant shops, it was nowhere to be found. And Miro who lives in Serbia was also having the same issue. He started hunting for it too. He's collecting all of the carnosas because he wants to make a really comprehensive video about all of the carnosa everythings and finally, I found a woman who was selling her mature plant for 30 euros and I was like, give it to me. So, I ordered that and immediately root rot, immediately when it arrived. It already had root rot. So I had to take a bunch of cuttings and save it. And I you know, I just love that Hoya and I also love Hoya carnosa. A lot of people are like, oh yeah it's been in the trade since like 1863. But I just love that plant so much. It's really beautiful.
Jane Perrone 16:00
Yeah. And I mean, as you as you say, you could just spend your lifetime collecting carnosa cultivars and be quite happy and quite content with your lot and have quite a diverse collection. Even then.
Betsy Begonia 16:14
Oh, yeah. Oh, I think he has something like 13 different carnosas, so yeah, yeah. Oh, I also have carnosa Brazil somewhere, but it's a it's a cute one, it looks a lot.
Jane Perrone 16:24
What's carnosa Brazil? I've not come across that.
Betsy Begonia 16:26
It looks a lot like the rubra the krimson princess but the leaves are a little bit pointier. And they kind of curl inward and they're quite pretty. And when the new leaves come in they're very pink or the you know, the parts that will eventually turn white come in very, very pink. Super adorable.
Jane Perrone 16:48
One of the things I talk about when I was researching Hoya carnosa for my book, one of the things I talk about is the fact that Victorians liked to wear hoya flower, hoya carno-. Well, hoya flowers generally, I should say, as buttonholes. And I'm trying to I'm trying to reignite this, as a, so maybe maybe this is something you I can get you on board with, with your sense of French style and everything. So you just need to get yourself one of those buttonhole holder things. I've got a sterling silver one, which I'm rather pleased with, but you can just buy I think you can buy ones made of all kinds you know plastic or whatever.
Betsy Begonia 17:26
Wait it's like a brooch?
Jane Perrone 17:27
Yeah, it's like a brooch. And then you have a little it's like a mini vase that you wear as a brooch. And then you have to then take your, I mean, the only downside is from a hoya's point of view, you're basically cutting off a peduncle. But if you can spare one.
Betsy Begonia 17:42
I just did that today by accident.
Jane Perrone 17:44
Yeah, you can cut off your peduncle. And then there's various things that they sort of mix it with, or you could just have the hoya and then I just sort of wrap it in a teensy tiny amount of like a ribbon or something just to, moist ribbon, and then stick it into this vase brooch thing. And there you've got your buttonhole. I'm hoping to revive this. I mean, I don't know how successful I'm going to be but that's my plan.
Betsy Begonia 18:08
What I'm really into are enamel pins. Every order that I send out I always put a little enamel pin in with it as a little gift. And you just reminded me I need to go downtown to my PO box because someone who is a member of my Discord server makes enamel pins and she made such adorable Hoya pins. It's like a little little creature and it's got like a little bouquet of hoya flowers. So I need to go downtown and get my little pins. They're so cute.
Jane Perrone 18:41
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's really great. Yeah, I love a pin. I wear a brooch every day. I'm not wearing anything planty today.
Betsy Begonia 18:48
We need to bring the brooch back.
Jane Perrone 18:49
Oh my gosh, are you gonna start me on? This is another podcast entirely. But yes, brooches. People need to start wearing brooches again.
Jane Perrone 19:06
More chat from Betsy soon. But a hoya question before that. And it comes from listener Jonathan about a hoya, you guessed it. And this plant which came to Jonathan as an unlabeled hoya, I'm guessing that it is Hoya carnosa krimson princess or as I think it's possibly more accurately known now rubra that's the one with the internal variegation so creamy centre and green on the outside. I think it's that one anyway, I wouldn't bet my life on it. But it wasn't really the ID that Jonathan was looking for. Jonathan has a question about marks on the leaves. He has seen small silvery patches on some leaves, but not all of them that can be rubbed or scratched off. And when Jonathan looks under a hand lens they don't appear to be a bug, and they appear flat, and the plant is looking healthy, so what on earth is going on? Well, the first word that springs to many hoya growers mind when we hear this description would be splash. But if you've been listening to the show for a while, you probably know that I don't really like that term. So we'll call it blister variegation, or air space variegation as it's also known and this is a feature of a lot of hoyas. It's nothing to worry about Jonathan, that's the first thing to say. This kind of variegation is not caused by any kind of pigmentation from the leaves. It's caused by a blister, an airspace, and this occurs under the epidermis, the top surface layer of the leaf, and the chlorenchyma, which is the cells that basically where the photosynthesis happens below the epidermis. And there's a space between those two layers of cells. And what happens is the light bounces into that space and then bounces out again and that gives you that silvery effect. And blister variegation is interesting because it doesn't affect photosynthesis. As far as we know. Generally, the plants have exactly the same amount of chlorophyll as they would do if they had no blister variegation. And we don't really know why it's there. There are various theories about mimicking pest damage. Also, whether the spaces that bounce light about help the plant to maximise the light that it has available. It's something that features in quite a few different house plants including Begonia maculata, which has much larger silvery blotches and other plants that have a silvery effect like Ceropegia woodii, the string of hearts plant. So I would say to Jonathan, don't worry, your plant is fine. This is a feature that you'll see to varying degrees on many hoyas. I was trying to think of hoyas that don't include these markings. There are a few. Actually, I was talking to Betsy Begonia about this off air and she reminded me that Hoya bella is one that doesn't have any sign of blister variegation. And the thing about blister variegation is that some hoya growers have fallen in love with these silvery marks and named them splash and are desperate to try to up the levels of splash in a leaf via any means necessary. I have never found a way of doing that in terms of varying things like light, and humidity and feeding. That doesn't seem to make any difference to how much splash is produced. I mean, possibly more light might help a little bit changing conditions. But really, your plant will decide how much splash it wants to put out. And that is that. But it's something to keep an eye on. It's easy to confuse things like splash with marks that you might get from the shed skins of pests or mealybugs. But as ever, get your hand lens out you regular listeners will know I love a hand lens, get your hand lens or magnifying glass out and have a look. And you'll be able to see like Jonathan did that they're not a bug. They're flat against the leaf and there is no problem. And if you do get up close and personal with some blister variegation, it's actually rather beautiful. So there you go, Jonathan, I hope that answers your question and puts your mind at rest. Now it's time to go back to talking more generally about hoyas with Betsy Begonia.
Jane Perrone 23:44
So I believe though we haven't talked about two hoya species, which I think are among your favourites, correct me if I'm wrong.
Betsy Begonia 23:52
Lacunosa and finlaysonii.
Jane Perrone 23:53
Yeah, exactly. Let's talk about those. I have neither.
Betsy Begonia 23:57
Oh my gosh.
Jane Perrone 23:58
Oh, no, I do. Do I? Do I have a lacunosa?
Betsy Begonia 24:00
I gotta send you some.
Jane Perrone 24:02
Well, I'm just thinking, do I have a lacunosa? I think oh, I think I might have a lacunosa. This is when you have too many plants. See, this is where there's some confusion because I do have something that is a bit lacunosa-y but I don't know if it's actually officially that. I do have something. I don't have finlaysonii, though. So what is it about those two particular species that draws you in?
Betsy Begonia 24:25
Like I know that it's definitely the flowers. I love the flowers. They're very, they have a beautiful scent to them. And it really lights up the entire apartment, just even if just one peduncle is in bloom. The smell is just glorious, and I love it and it puts me in such a good mood. Actually, the first time that my lacunosa bloomed, I was living in Paris. I had gone on holidays and so I had a couple stay in my home to take care of my cats while I was gone. I used to use the website TrustedHousesitters, not a sponsor, but hey. And when I got home my whole apartment smelled like perfume I was like What? What did they spray? And I was almost like upset and angry. Like, what is this perfume that they decided to spray in my home? And then I found my plant and I was like, oh my God and my my whole demeanour changed. I was like, Oh my God. It's my lacunosa! I just fell in love! But it's it definitely started with the flowers of lacunosa. And then I think I just became obsessed with them, started collecting them. And then I started seeing how each lacunosa varies so vastly from plant to plant. And I really like that one in particular, because the leaves have this. They have like this wonky personality. I mean, that's kind of how I feel about all Hoyas. Every time they put out a new leaf, it's going to look different from any other leaf on the plant, for the most part. And so it's kind of like opening a present.
Jane Perrone 26:01
Yeah, that's so true.
Betsy Begonia 26:02
But yeah. But lacunosa in particular, like they've got the wonkiest leaves. And I just really liked that. I think it's also the reason why I love begonia, for example, it's that asymmetry in the leaf. There's something about that, that just even though I'm like, I'm actually kind of like an anal retentive person. I'm a little a little bit tightly wound if you couldn't tell. And I like things to be in their place. And I like symmetry. There's something about begonia and though the wonkiness of hoya leaves that really draws me in, almost like opposites attract.
Jane Perrone 26:41
Yeah, I think there is something very true about that. I mean, when I look at, for example, my macrophylla/latifolia outer-variegated, whatever the heck we're calling it these days. I love that one. And but it's just got these crazy sort of stems with nothing on them. I'm like, is there is anything ever going to grow on there? I don't know. It's interesting. I'm just gonna let it see what happens with it. I'm gonna send you a picture of my in inverted commas 'lacunosa', though, because perhaps you can see my record keeping is is atrocious, absolutely atrocious. I'm sure somebody whoever sent me a cutting of that told me what it was, but I don't know. It hasn't flowered. But it's got quite dark. Maybe it's not lacunosa. It's the leaves are quite dark green, like almost blackish. But they are very variable. You're right.
Betsy Begonia 27:34
Maybe it's krohniana black leaves.
Jane Perrone 27:34
Yeah, maybe it is. Maybe it is, but I'll send you a picture of it. You can ID it for me. But you're right. They are a bit mysterious. I think hoyas and...
Betsy Begonia 27:44
And it doesn't even stop there. It also goes into the the naming of these species and these hybrids. It's just an absolute nightmare of sorts. And actually, that's a lot of the reason that I love them as well, being able to deep dive and do your research and connect with people just to figure out, 'what is the origin of this hybrid?' or just trying to figure out information about them. Because so many of them are misidentified or confused or, you know, there are a lot of problems going on with the identification of hoyas. There is so,
Jane Perrone 28:27
Absolutely.
Betsy Begonia 28:28
There really is like there are levels of mysteriousness to them.
Jane Perrone 28:31
There are I mean, I'm hoping at some point, somebody's going to write the ultimate tome, the ultimate hoya tome, but it'll be out of date in about five months. That's the issue, right? We can't rely on things not changing as we discover more and more about these plants. So I don't know what the answer is but yeah.
Betsy Begonia 28:48
Well I think that Michele Rodda and Nathalie Simonsson are doing very good work.
Jane Perrone 28:52
These are two Hoya science botanists are they?
Betsy Begonia 28:55
Yes, yeah, two botanists. Nathalie is from Sweden and Michele Rodda is from Italy. And they've published quite a few hoyas in recent years. And they have also gone back and clearly identified Hoyas that were you know, previously misidentified etcetera. So, they're doing very good work.
Jane Perrone 29:16
Well, it is it is very good work because we need to, we need answers. We do need answers on some of these. These issues. Now, finlaysonii well, what's the deal with that one? Is that the one that gets mixed up with villosa or is villosa...
Betsy Begonia 29:32
Well possibly, I wouldn't say villosa is a finlaysonii type. But yeah, finlatsonii can also be confused with clemensiorum sometimes, but yeah, I have. I have I think I have as many finlaysoniis as I do lacunosa, but most of them are for the shop. They're not actually part of my private collection. But goodness they're, I they're gorgeous. But you know what's interesting is that, well I'm American and I live here in Europe. And I've noticed that there is a difference in the way that Americans appreciate hoyas and the way that Europeans appreciate them. So Americans are obsessed with the leaves. It's all about the foliage. So they they tend to really love this big leaf Hoyas that are very dramatic and showy, with contrasting veins: clemensiorum, finlaysonii, callistophylla. Europeans love the flowers. And so when I was taking my, when I was making my first orders for the shop, I was shopping like an American. I was like, everybody loves a big showy leaf. Everybody loves contrasting veins. And so I ordered all of these finlaysoniis. And Europeans were just like nah no thanks. And they were ordering based on what the flower of it's going to look like. And meanwhile, Americans were like, please save me some of those finlaysoniis, you know, because they, they want those they love the flower or the sorry, leaves. So now I know how to shop for my market.
Jane Perrone 31:13
We need to get on though to the other sort of hoya point of stress for anyone who's kind of built a collection of these plants, which is the DM word mites. Now, I mean I've recently discovered what I think are broad mites on some hoya cuttings that I got from somewhere or other. Fortunately, they're in a closed prop box right now. So I've just left them in there to sort of,
Betsy Begonia 31:44
What are the symptoms that you have seen?
Jane Perrone 31:46
Well, that the it was one of these hoyas that was planted into, I don't even know what you call it. I was talking to Felix about this. It's like a hoya that's planted into a tree stump.
Betsy Begonia 31:57
Oh, the coconut husk? Oh I hate that.
Jane Perrone 31:59
Yeah, the coconut husk thing, but it's like it's not chunks. It's literally a whole.
Betsy Begonia 32:04
Yes, yes. I don't like that.
Jane Perrone 32:06
It feels like a tree stump.
Betsy Begonia 32:07
The best thing you can do is just take cuttings from those.
Jane Perrone 32:10
Yeah, that's what I did. I just was like, no, I'm not having this. So I just took cuttings of it and put it in a prop box.
Betsy Begonia 32:16
You know, and there was something he said. He was talking about his archboldiana. And he was saying it never grows, never grows. And he's been trying to get it to grow for two years. I bet it's got broad mites or flat mites. I haven't seen it.
Jane Perrone 32:30
Yeah.
Betsy Begonia 32:31
But that's, my alarm bells were going off. Like that's not right. It shouldn't.
Jane Perrone 32:34
Yeah that's the major symptom, isn't it? Is just no growth. I mean, I to be fair, I do have some hoyas that haven't grown for two years that I have examined with a 90 magnification lens and there are no mites on them. So it's not always the case. But you're right. It's a good thing to check. Definitely a good thing to check because these mites can really hold back growth and they are absolutely tiny. They're tiny than spider mites. I don't know what the actual kind of dimensions are in relation to red spider mites, but they are super small. You certainly can't see them with even like a times 10 magnification.
Betsy Begonia 33:12
Oh the flat mites? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're they're incredibly tiny.
Jane Perrone 33:17
Flat mites and broad mites. I know what the broad mites look like. But can you describe for listeners the, what they are like and what we're looking for.
Betsy Begonia 33:24
So usually and this this was my problem, I thought that there was only one type of spider mite. That's the two spotted spider mite. That's the one that creates webs between the leaves of the plant. And you can see those with the naked eye very clearly. I had my own nightmare a few months ago, when I brought home a Monstera and a goeppertia plant from the greenhouse. And like a week later, I suddenly saw webs and these mites crawling back and forth between the webs and I was like oh my god, it was the first time I had ever seen them. So that's the two spider, sorry, two spotted spider mite. Flat mites however, they do not create webs and they are so tiny, you cannot see them with the naked eye. The only time I ever, like when I discovered that I had them. It was after I purchased a USB microscope and I was looking at my plants under the microscope just out of genuine curiosity having a good time. And I discovered flat mites. They are bright, red-orange coloured. And in my experience, they appear all along the stem around the nodes and then sometimes on the underside of the leaves. And if you have a true infestation because at this time they were not showing any, like the leaves were not showing any physical symptoms. It was just that the hoyas were not growing. The growth tips would die off with no explanation, they they simply just weren't growing. There were no other signs. But if you do have a very strong infestation that goes on for some period of time, you will start to see kind of like a, the backs of the leaves become kind of scabby looking, they kind of become like a dusty beige brown colour where they have, you know, worked their quote unquote, 'magic', but under the microscope, I found them and just bright, bright or-, they're impossible to miss once you see them. And I know that Adam, he has the YouTube channel, Knot Dude in the Instagram account, Knot Dude. He first saw them while he was taking photos of his hoyas with a, like a really good fisheye lens. But there's a better word for that, macro lens. And, yeah, so that's, that's when I discovered those and I honestly for years had absolutely no idea that I had them. Then when the broad mites, I had a Hoya deykeae. I had had it since 2019, spring 2019, and it only had like three or four leaves. And it kept developing these weird little nubby growths, these little stunted growths all around the base, like the bottom node, the main node of the plant, and sometimes a little leaf would start to push out. And then before long, it would turn yellow and fall off. And I thought what on earth is going on? I don't, like this plant is just so stubborn. It never grows. And it stayed the same size from 2019 until earlier, I think January this year. So like, quite some time. And finally, a Swedish, because the Swedes were aware of this, a Swedish woman, Emily told me, You know what that looks like, it looks like these. I don't remember the Swedish word. God help me I could not even pronounce it if I tried it, it looks like broad mites basically. And that's when I found out about broad mites. And I was able to put it under the microscope and find them. They are so difficult to spot, you have to know exactly where to look. And they're very, very hard to discover. But yeah, if you're getting little nubby growths, where it looks like a stem started to come out, and then it just like kind of stopped and hardened over that is a very clear sign of broad mites. And I will make a video about it soon. But I've been kind of I mean, I've been talking to the members of the Hoya Stemma Journal, Facebook group, because they did a write up some time ago about flat mites and treating flat mites. And, yeah, I thought that I had the solution, which would be a warm water bath. But that's still kind of like in the experimental phase. So no.
Jane Perrone 38:05
Yeah, there's no easy answers. I mean, I know that I recently read something from Doug Chamberlain in the US, Vermont Hoyas as he is known, about his own flat mite epiphany. And I think,
Betsy Begonia 38:18
Yeah, he made a video about treating with sulphur.
Jane Perrone 38:20
Yeah, the sulphur solution seems to be a popular one. I think there's isn't there an orchid grower who's using a sort of mineral oil spray? Is it Orchid Girl?
Betsy Begonia 38:30
It might be Miss Orchid Girl?
Jane Perrone 38:31
Yeah.
Betsy Begonia 38:31
Yeah. Oh, I love her.
Jane Perrone 38:32
Yeah so I mean, I haven't done anything yet, I've just left the...
Betsy Begonia 38:36
Well the, the thing about the sulphur I'm with the reason that I don't like it, but I think I'm going to have to resort to it eventually, is that it leaves this scummy crusty white you know residue all over your leaves. And when you're somebody who has a shop and you depend on photographs of your plants in order to sell them, it's not exactly what I want. But the other thing that I really want to emphasise, sulphur will work against flat mites and broad mites, it will, but you have to spray the plants with the sulphur every seven to 10 days for eight weeks, because the sulphur does not destroy the eggs. So you're not destroying the lifecycle of the mite. And I just really want to emphasise this because we do not want to create a sulphur resistant strain of flat mites. So it's very important. And I remember Doug made that video. And I told him, I'm glad that you treated once, but you if you really want to get rid of them. Fine, you know, forever. You have to treat this many times and this and he said, well, it's just it's too much of a hassle like what, what is this hobby anymore? I thought well, has it not always been a headache? But I just really want people to understand that we do risk creating a resistant mite strain, which would be an entirely new nightmare.
Jane Perrone 40:08
Yeah, that's a worry, isn't it? I hadn't thought of that. Oh, it may well be keeping me up at night. I mean, I think the the minimum, I presume the same, I presume the same is true with the mineral spray that you're probably going to need to. I mean, that that kills the eggs, though, doesn't it? I'll put a link to this in the show notes. So people can go and have a look at it. But,
Betsy Begonia 40:30
Oh please do and yeah, send me the link, because I haven't looked deeply into the horticultural oil or the mineral oil.
Jane Perrone 40:37
Yeah I mean, she's got a fairly straightforward recipe on her website, which again, I haven't tried, but it's using things that you can get quite easily I believe, most places.
Jane Perrone 40:49
I think she uses just regular baby oil. I can't remember anyway, but it's quite, I remember looking at it thinking, oh, I could do that.
Betsy Begonia 40:49
Okay.
Betsy Begonia 40:57
Okay.
Jane Perrone 40:57
But if you've got a lot of plants, it's just, it's just a pain, isn't it? But you know,
Betsy Begonia 41:02
Oh, yes, I have 500. What was working for me was the warm water bath, I even bought a Sous Vide cooker. And I put it in a 70 litre bin. And the research shows that if you submerge a plant in water between temperatures of 110 to 120 Fahrenheit, I believe that's 43 to 49 degrees Celsius, I usually try to aim for like 44, because there's no reason to stress the plant beyond that, since that seems to work. You just submerge it for 10 to 15 minutes. It destroys the eggs, it destroys the mites and every single livestock, lifestyle, life cycle. And that has been working for me. There have only been a couple of plants where the mites seem to come back. And I think it was because I had made an error. And the temperature in the pot was not high enough. But I also accidentally let the water go too hot at one point because I walked away and I was doing whatever it is that I do. And I came back and was like, oh my god, it's at 48 degrees! And those plants. Yeah, those leaves don't look fantastic, right now. They're not bad but they don't look fantastic right now. So it is I'm still the experimental phase. Once I've got it figured out, I would love to make a video about it. That's very comprehensive.
Jane Perrone 42:24
I may be appearing quite calm about this whole mite thing. I think it's because I've had root mealybugs.
Betsy Begonia 42:29
Yeah, oh.
Jane Perrone 42:30
And I think once you've had root mealybugs, like you just think all other pests are like, just child's play. I mean, I don't know. It's, you just get very, very kind of blase, but it's an interesting thing to consider. If you do have a lot of hoyas that haven't grown it is a good thing to think about this. So you've just bought a plug in microscope, like a USB microscope to see your...
Betsy Begonia 42:33
Oh yeah, just a cheap-y little thing. I think I paid 24 on Amazon, but it's probably it's just drop shipped from AliExpress. You could get it for 10 bucks on AliExpress, but it works. It works very, very well. And I can record with it. And I have recorded footage of the flat mites and the broad mites. And I've I have made posts on you know that Facebook group Hoya Obsessed and on Instagram to show people exactly where they need to look. Because a lot of people don't know where to look for the mites.
Jane Perrone 43:27
I haven't invested on one of those. I probably should as I say my,
Jane Perrone 43:30
Yeah, I can imagine my 90 magnification lens is so small and my eyesight you know, it's not that great. So I'm sort of squinting away trying to see these things. So that's a definite definitely a good investment. Although, does it leave you sort of feeling a little bit itchy.
Betsy Begonia 43:30
Oh it's so fun.
Betsy Begonia 43:34
No, no, no, no.
Jane Perrone 43:49
After you've looked?
Betsy Begonia 43:51
I'm not the type of person to like get nauseous over things or to get creeped out. And I actually I find it fascinating because you know they're mites. They're not here to chew on me and they're not here to get on my cats. They're just chewing on my plant, which I hate, obviously, but I do find it fascinating. Adam, I just talked about him, Knot Dude, he sent me, because he also has a USB microscope. He sent me a video that he caught of a flat mites laying eggs. That was yucky.
Jane Perrone 44:26
Yeah, yeah I hear you.
Betsy Begonia 44:28
I did not need that in my life.
Jane Perrone 44:29
As I pointed out on the show several times before, and as I would point out to the woman I saw on Tik Tok the other day who was complaining about conifer aphids on her potted Christmas tree. Yeah, she was going crazy and I was kind of like you realise there's mites living on your face.
Betsy Begonia 44:50
And your eyelashes.
Jane Perrone 44:51
I mean, yeah, on your eyelashes. You have mites like really? We need to get over this might squeamishness because they're on us. They're in us.
Betsy Begonia 44:59
Have you ever heard of Heywood Banks? This is so off topic.
Jane Perrone 45:01
Go on. No, I haven't.
Betsy Begonia 45:03
This is something I learned when I was a really young child. There's an American comedian who makes really silly songs. And one of his songs is about dust mites. And he talks about how the mites are like living in your eyes. It's a disgusting song. But he sings it in such a sweet, subtle way. Like it's a lullaby. And I heard that, I think when I was like, eight, because my dad really liked this comedian. And so I've known that always, I'm like, How can you not know that you're just covered in bugs?
Jane Perrone 45:35
Yeah, let alone you know, all the bacteria and things that are living inside us. I mean, really, we should be a little bit more aware of this stuff. But as you say, it's we're in an experimental stage at the minute and I guess there are probably, you know, these things are spreading around as hoyas become so popular and plants are being passed around more and more, more and more people are coming up against this problem. So it's gonna be really interesting to see how that shakes down and and whether hopefully, there's a good solution that we can all kind of try and that actually works.
Betsy Begonia 46:12
Yeah, I would like to, I would like to develop some sort of system for people so that they can ensure that if their collection has been cleaned of pests, then when they introduce new plants into their home, they have a you know, step one, step two, step three process in order to ensure that any new plants coming in are not going to spread pests to their current plants. I, for example, whenever I get new cuttings, I just give them the warm water bath to begin with, and quarantine them for a little while. Check them with the microscope two or three weeks later, no mites? Okay. They can join their friends. So...
Jane Perrone 46:51
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Quant- quarantining is central. Well, it's been really lovely to speak to you, Betsy.
Betsy Begonia 46:57
It has, thank you so much.
Jane Perrone 46:59
I'll put all those useful links in the show notes to your shop and mite info et cetera and the the growers and botanists that you mentioned as well, because I know people love to go deep into this stuff. And there's so much to learn. But for the moment, are there any more, my last question to you is, is there any more hoyas out there that you still are seeking that you're kind of your dream plant that's still out there?
Betsy Begonia 47:25
Indaysarae.
Jane Perrone 47:26
And what is it about that one?
Betsy Begonia 47:28
Hoya indaysarae is just so beautiful, I have recently become obsessed with these little thin leaf Hoyas like Hoya exilis which I have, Hoya apoda, linavergarae. I just love these little thin leaved hoyas and their flowers are so so precious. And I am dying to get my hands on indaysarae so hopefully sometime soon, I will have that in my collection, that's the only one that I'm looking for. Because honestly, I don't have room.
Betsy Begonia 47:32
I feel you.
Betsy Begonia 47:57
I will, I will make room for that baby, so.
Jane Perrone 48:08
Well any listeners, I'm happy to be a go between to facilitate searching down this precious hoya. But for the moment I think as you say, you've probably got enough Betsy. I think you've got enough.
Betsy Begonia 48:20
I probably do, I think I do.
Jane Perrone 48:22
Thank you so much for joining me.
Betsy Begonia 48:23
Thank you so much for having me. This has been an absolute pleasure. You are such a doll.
Jane Perrone 48:28
Oh, thank you. Likewise back at you.
Jane Perrone 48:45
Thank you so much to Betsy Begonia. And if you want to go and find out more about her shop HoyaMyGosh, then you can check the show notes. Also there you'll find details of her various social media including her new podcast Heavens To Betsy, which is not anything to do with houseplants, but delightful nonetheless and definitely worth a listen. And that my planty friends is all for this week's show. Please do have a fabulous week and I'll be back next Friday with more planty content to delight your ears. Bye.
Jane Perrone 49:36
The music you heard in this episode was Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops. The Road We Used To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Whistle by BenJamin Banger. All Tracks are Licenced under Creative Commons. Visit the show notes for details.
I dive deep into the world of Hoyas with Betsy Begonia of boutique online store HoyaMyGosh! and I tackle a Hoya-themed Q&A.
This week’s guest
Betsy Begonia owns rare Hoya shop HoyaMyGosh! from her home in France and is well known for her houseplanty YouTube channel. She recently started a new podcast called Heavens to Betsy. You can find Betsy on Instagram at @betsybegonia and she’s on Facebook here.
Check out the show notes below as you listen…
Betsy’s YouTube Channel got a boost when Jenna Marbles mentioned her on a houseplant tour video.
Other Hoya enthusisasts Betsy mentions include Miro from Basie Plants and Adam from @knotdude.
The two Hoya scientists Betsy mentions are Michele Rodda from Italy and Nathalie Simonsson from Sweden
Did you know the Victorians wore Hoya blooms as buttonholes? You can see a video of my Hoya buttonhole here.
Two of Betsy’s favourite Hoyas are H. lacunosa and H. finlaysonii.
Broad mites and flat mites are particularly keen on Hoyas and they are very hard to spot: they are super-tiny even compared with red spider mite. The main symptoms of flat mites and broad mites are plants failing to grow, with growth tips dying off for seemingly no reason. In really bad infestations you’ll see brown, corky areas on the leaves.
Neither mite creates webbing like the red spider mite. Flat mites are bright red and tend to appear around the nodes and stem and sometimes on the undersides of leaves. Broad mites are white, rounder, but just as hard to see.
Broad and flat mites are hard to cure, but sulphur treatments and submerging whole plants warm water baths for 10-15 minutes are both recommended although both have their drawbacks: sulphur leaves a deposit on the leaves and needs repeated applications, while the water bath needs to be at the exact right temperature (110-120F/43-49C) and may not be completely effective on both broad and flat mites - the jury is still out.
The Hoya journal Stemma contains an interesting article on flat mites which is worth a read: join the Stemma Facebook group to join discussion on this issue. Join Facebook group Hoya Obsession to read posts from Betsy and others about their mite struggles.
Miss Orchid Girl uses a mineral oil treatment which some recommend but neither Betsy nor I have tried it (if you have, let me know how you’ve found it!)
The Hoya Betsy still wants to add to her collection is Hoya indaysarae. More about the naming of this beautiful Hoya plus images of the blooms here.
Blister variegation shows up as silvery marks on Hoya leaves. Photograph: Jonathan Bykowski.
QUESTION OF THE WEEK
Jonathan got in touch to ask about silvery marks on his NOID Hoya. This is caused by blister variegation, which is where plants display pockets of air underneath the epidermis (outer layer of the leaf) but above the chlorenchyma the tissue which contains the apparatus of photosynthesis.
So, no pigmentation is involved, just air pockets that bounce light back up, causing that patch to look silvery. Some Hoya growers call this ‘splash’ and it can turn up in many Hoya species, although there are a few exceptions such as Hoya bella. If you use a hand lens to look at any silvery marks on your leaves, you will be able to tell the difference between pests or pest damage (eg shed skins of spider mites, mealybugs).
There’s always talk of how to heighten ‘splash’ on Hoyas, but I have not come across any sure-fire ways of doing this. Other houseplant species that exhibit blister variegation are Begonia maculata (polka dot begonia) and Ceropegia woodii (string of hearts). WE don’t really know why it’s there, but there are theories that these marks mimic pest damage and/or help to bounce light around the plant.
Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue.
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CREDITS
This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, The Road We Use To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Whistle by BenJamin Banger (@benjaminbanger on Insta; website benjaminbanger.com).