Episode 303: Late Night On The Ledge - Ben Newell of Worcester Terrariums

Jane Perrone and Ben Newell of Worcestershire Terrariums. Photograph: Up Top Studios.

Subscribe to On The Ledge via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Player FM, Podchaser and YouTube.

Transcript

[0:04] Jane Perrone Hello and welcome to On The Ledge episode 303 the fourth in my late night OTL series and the last episode before the show takes a break. I know devastating but we've got a great episode this week. I'm so glad to be talking to the inspirational content creator and terrarium maker extraordinaire, Ben Newell of Worcester Terrariums. We'll be finding out what makes Ben tick, how he garnered an incredible 2 million plus followers on social media, and exactly how you make a terrarium from a bottle of soy sauce.

[0:41] Jane Perrone Before we get going, a quick reminder, this is a late night On The Ledge episode. So think of a late night chat show format. So expect some bad language so maybe some off-topic conversations away from our usual indoor gardening theme and topics that might not be suitable for younger ears. Right that said let's get into our chat. Ben welcome to the show, I can't believe it's taken me 300 episodes to get you on On The Ledge that is very wrong but welcome glad to have you here. I have to say I'm a little bit nervous to interview you because I kind of dismissed terrariums in the late night On The Ledge episode with Sarah and Tea.

[1:22] Ben Newell It's okay.

[1:23] Jane Perrone I was sort of talking about how I admire them and appreciate the work that goes into them but they're not something that's part of my planty repertoire at the moment if I can put it that way, but I do love looking at your work. Now you produce all these beautiful terrariums and they're works of art but they're also really functional too and your attention to detail is incredible and you're also really generous in sharing the stuff that you know via your social media and also through your new book, Hello Tiny World, which is amazing. So let's get into it. We want to talk about how this all began. Now, I know you've talked a little bit about this in the past, but I'd really like to sort of go back to... Where your love of plants began and it wasn't really with terrariums was it?

[2:10] Ben Newell No no certainly not. So first of all thanks for having me um it's surreal for me to be on here because I've listened to your podcast for a long time.

[2:18] Jane Perrone Sorry about- you're probably sick of my voice.

[2:20] Ben Newell No no it's good you have a nice voice it's fine. So yeah I didn't I didn't grow up with horticulture, I probably say this too much but my only experience really was putting a bean into a plastic cup putting it on on my Year 2 windowsill and then we didn't I didn't come back to it until I was uh 21 22 years old.

[2:42] Jane Perrone That poor bean, by that time...

[2:43] Ben Newell So I went through a difficult period in my life um I lost my dad when I was 8 and then my brother when I was 13. Completely failed school, like I left school with four GCSEs but I should have got three my RE teacher definitely lied about some coursework I handed in um and I got involved with a lot of a lot of bad things I was um using drugs, drinking every day which at 16 years old is you know no 16 year old should be doing that um and it was an especially dark time which lasted a really long time. So when I think about that time period really it started when I was about 13 and it didn't end until I was 23.

[3:35] Jane Perrone But you must have been holding on to an incredible amount of grief and...

[3:39] Ben Newell Yeah and it was it came out when I left school, all my friends went off to college I- the thing that really sticks in my mind was how anxious I was I really struggled to be around new people. Like so much so I would feel physically sick and sometimes be sick. And that really stayed with me until I was, until I got this job at a school, which I'll tell you about in a moment. But yeah, those were some really, really dark times. And I've never really elaborated on them to, only to people who were close to me. But I think discovering horticulture was definitely one of the key components to pulling me out of that. So when I got this job, I got a job at a primary school. And I was working one-to-one with a three-year-old child. And it started out as half an hour a day I would go in um and just we just hang out half an hour because he he was a lovely little boy but he found it difficult to be in class, and that progressed to one hour, to three hours, and then I was with him all day and um it was also at this time where I did discover horticulture because as part of his daily routine he had to to take the compost bin out from the reception classroom to the compost bin and he hated doing it. Every day was a struggle he would kick and scream and throw the compost bin and just really didn't want to do that.

[5:09] Ben Newell But I became very interested in composting it was, because they had they had a compost bin and they had another one which was like a year old and it had the most amazing compost in it and I became very interested in this process and right next door to the school I was working at was an allotment site so I put my name down and eventually got a 16th of an acre plot of land which I had no idea what to do with. I cleared the land with a friend of mine who then decided he wanted to hop on and help me and yeah having this patch of land to care for was um instrumental in helping me leave behind that damaging life I was living. Along with a few other things um and I often think I think I may even have said this in my book about what would have happened had I not taken on that allotment because from here is where I truly discovered my love for plants um and ended up here today on the Jane Perrone podcast.

[6:12] Jane Perrone I mean what would you, what message would you kind of send- if you could sort of send a message back in time to your 13 14 year old self what would you kind of say? Because I think this is it's hard when you're that age everything seems like it's going to be forever and of course it isn't but what would you would you have a like would what would you wish you'd have known then that you know now.

[6:31] Ben Newell Nothing is as scary as it seems. I think that's the one thing I would um tell 13 year old Ben is that you know you just you just have to give things a go and don't run away from things um but in another way I'm glad I went through what I went through because, um, you know, I am where I am today. So, so yeah, I think not being scared and trying things is, is really important. Um. And, you know, not having my dad and my brother around probably made things difficult. But I have to say I was very fortunate. My mother and my sister were extremely supportive and stuck with me through all of the terrible times. So, you know, on one hand, yes, I was dealt a difficult hand. But on the other side of that, I was also very fortunate.

[7:21] Jane Perrone I'm really glad to hear that composting was key here because, you know, long term listeners will know this is also my passion. And I do have this you know I mean I'm sure this draws into a lot of what you do with terrariums too like like the process of decomposition is- If we can understand that I think it starts to help you get a perspective on the world if you understand how things rot. That sounds kind of a strange thing to say but...

[7:47] Ben Newell It's fascinating as well and like the role of detritivores like within a terrarium but also within our own world is um. Yeah people don't really think about this um and I think it's a really really fascinating topic and something that um I learned much more about through terrarium making.

[8:05] Jane Perrone Yeah because you obviously we'll get onto the the creatures that you feature in your in your work um and and meeting some of those. Now you are amazing at teaching people about terrariums, you do it in person in workshops, you do it in your videos, and also in your book. I mean you must get so many questions with such a big following. I imagine that it's, you're answering the same things over and over again. Is there one thing that people are always asking you and what's the question that like should be coming up that isn't?

[8:36] Ben Newell I think aside from 'why is my terrarium dying?' and usually that's either not enough light or too much water.

[8:43] Jane Perrone Yeah.

[8:43] Ben Newell Or bad soil um people ask a lot about mosses and what kind of mosses they can use. 'Why has my moss gone on brown?' um and I think I mean to answer that like you you can't just go onto your roof and take moss and use that in your terrarium um you know these mosses require quite specific conditions um and to just think oh it's a humidity loving plant we're just going to shove it into a terrarium it's going to work, is is wrong so I think um I like to encourage people to use aquatic mosses is because they grow fast, easy to propagate, and they're not taken from the wild, which I think is a big thing.

[9:27] Ben Newell Questions people should be asking. I mean, I did think about this when I read the questions. Not necessarily questions, I think people should really, take into- take in their mind that these aren't permanent. Like I really want to get this across. Terrariums aren't permanent, much in the same way you would repot a house plant um you would prune a house plant it's it's exactly the same with a terrarium so I would um encourage people to to keep in their minds that nothing is permanent and that we can change and redo them and that's where a lot of the joy comes with terrarium making at least for me.

[10:05] Jane Perrone Yeah absolutely I mean they will last some time but what's your lifespan of a typical terrarium before you need to get in there and do any major work?

[10:14] Ben Newell It really depends on the plants that you use, so the one behind you which I brought with me on the train that is nearing five years old and it's gone through so many changes um I think I put a peperomia pepperspot in there um oak leaf fig and a small pyrrosia fern, which I took out. Um, but it's nearly five years old and I've done, other than water it a few times, I've done pretty much nothing. On the flip side to that, um, there are terrariums, like, I don't know, there's a tiny one down there. It's only a few months old. Plants are starting to fill it. Um, now would be a good time to take everything out, maybe use those plants elsewhere um there's no real time scale um each one is individual and I'd probably encourage people maybe to use plants that are a little slower growing, smaller leaves so that you know maybe you can enjoy it for longer. But going back to that nothing is permanent thing I think is something I always keep in my mind.

[11:14] Jane Perrone You must wince though when you go on online and see some of the terrariums people are making with like, I always think asparagus fern like why would you put an asparagus fern?

[11:24] Ben Newell Yeah I mean.

[11:24] Jane Perrone I mean obviously you can but-

[11:27] Ben Newell Yeah.

[11:27] Jane Perrone Presumably knowing asparagus ferns growth rate, that's going to be quite a limited-

[11:33] Ben Newell Yeah I mean.

[11:34] Jane Perrone -time span.

[11:35] Ben Newell Yeah.

[11:36] Jane Perrone Oh you've got one in there oh look but how but how long has that been in there

[11:40] Ben Newell Three years.

[11:41] Jane Perrone Oh really?

[11:42] Ben Newell Yeah so I mean-

[11:43] Jane Perrone That's blown my idea out of the water I always thought they'd get maybe in there it's, dwarfed it's kind of like...

[11:49] Ben Newell I actually have no idea um I agree with you it's not something, a plant I would use that much anymore um and also I noticed that it died back at one point.

[11:59] Jane Perrone Right.

[12:00] Ben Newell So so yeah I don't know it's and like with, there are certain plants that grow very quickly so um I think if you do use those plants just understand that in a few months time you're gonna have to you know get in there do some pruning or more than likely replace the plants entirely um but yeah there's, I mean there's such a wide breadth of plants that we can use um some of them are very expensive. But I think, you know with the methods that we can use to plant a terrarium, plants can go a really long way. Like using cuttings, you can take a single Fittonia plant and actually make lots of terrariums with this single plant. If you're like me, I don't buy plants very often you know. I have so many terrariums at home and in my studio that I will just take cuttings from them and use them in other terrariums, give them away, I think that's a big- like I love that I love giving people new plants it's such a such a fun thing to do I also love receiving new plants too.

[13:08] Jane Perrone Yeah no that is that's that's a great message and I guess it's just a question of experimentation. You know something that might work for somebody might not work for somebody else in a slightly different setting, different soil, and so on. You know I guess that's where it comes in it just makes me slightly, I think the one thing that I think there probably is a red line about is using succulents in closed terrariums is that I mean...

[13:34] Ben Newell I agree with you but you know even with that um on my Facebook group someone had shared you know, oh I put a succulent in a closed terrarium and look how well it's doing. I wouldn't encourage anyone to do that because you know we know that's bad practice um but yeah this person had I can't actually remember what it was but the succulent they used had had grown thick white roots and seemed like it was loving life in there but, you know more often than not you'd be wasting your money if you bought a cacti and put it into a closed terrarium.

[14:05] Jane Perrone Yeah I mean as an OG listener you might remember when I had somebody on the show who had a cactus that was really many many years old that was growing in a glass jar and it was just like one of these things where you go 'how is that working? how is that possible?' but somehow is succeeding.

[14:21] Ben Newell And also I think with you know cacti and succulents there is, I wouldn't really consider them terrariums, but you you know people call them open terrariums these desert plantings those arid region style plantings which you know that's how you would do it if you wanted to make an open terrarium um but yeah certainly don't don't put put an arid region plant into a closed terrarium where it's very humid.

[14:45] Jane Perrone Yes there's a lot of mush that results from that kind of activity. You do use an amazing range of different vessels for your terrariums I mean this is why I guess you've got so many followers because you're always coming up with these incredible ideas. I mean ones that sort of sprang into my mind were the tic-tac container, the little sweet container um terrarium so tiny, soy sauce bottle, gumball machine, I mean there was a terrarium with the waterfall in it I just like I'm overawed by your ability. So how do you, this is your job this is what you do for a living now in the last um is it how long have you been completely...?

[15:25] Ben Newell 18 months full time.

[15:26] Jane Perrone So how are you coming up with ideas and and where are you getting your inspiration from?

[15:31] Ben Newell I think I watch other creators online, so the tic-tac wasn't my idea.

[15:37] Jane Perrone Right.

[15:38] Ben Newell That was um another creator um I think for me like first and foremost it's important for me to be in a happy place um I produce my best work when I'm happy um so I think taking care of myself in that way is really important, I like to exercise, eat well um and yeah that that is very important to me. In terms of like finding inspiration um there are some creators online who are doing some incredible things especially on Youtube um also on Instagram and Tiktok and short form platforms there's a lot of people making amazing work in the terrarium-vivarium space where they introduce aquatic elements, aquatic animals, reptiles and amphibians, it you know it's it's a growing space which is full of highly creative people. Having said that once you get into making terrariums like there is... If it's clear if the container is clear and um it can be sealed off like it has the capacity to be a terrarium. It might not be for very long but you know you can create something quite sweet. I think it's a great project with your children um you know to create a small terrarium in an everyday object.

[16:57] Ben Newell So like you say the soy sauce bottle I was watching a friend of mine use soy sauce at the studio and I thought don't throw that bottle away I want to make a terrarium out of it um it might not last you know five years like the terrarium behind you but you know if I get six months out of it and then I can reuse those plants somewhere else then happy days that's that's great. But yeah I don't know I I think I just watch people online, go outdoors a lot you, know this ties back into being happy um I don't get to do that as much as I'd like to living in London now.

[17:36] Jane Perrone Do you get any good ideas from from people who've watched your videos and says try this next try uh some other weird vessel have you had any good um follower ideas?

[17:48] Ben Newell I think certainly with naming animals I have um I'll always ask people about that there's some hilarious ones um someone actually uh pointed me on to those um sort of bell jars. So yeah I mean it's nice to engage with the audience and see see what ideas they have um someone had a certain brand of saffron that was sold in Sainsbury's and sent me a photo so I very swiftly went and brought this saffron um and then turn that into a small terrarium. So so yeah I've certainly taken some ideas from the audience.

[18:25] Jane Perrone Yeah and let's talk about some of the terrariums you've got here um we've already mentioned the one with the asparagus fern in it. Is that some kind of little creeping ficus you've got in there as well?

[18:36] Ben Newell I believe it's ficus colombia that's what I bought it as I think it has a few different names um it's completely taken over as you can see.

[18:46] Jane Perrone It has.

[18:46] Ben Newell And there is uh ficus punctata in there or ficus Panama it's known as, um I'm sure there's a marcgravia creeping in there some somewhere uh that terrarium was that's got the most views on social media for me because I would feed the bugs like cucumbers and apples um and it needs a trim but I almost quite like just how wild it is. I think with the terrariums on the table, so this is the sort of thing I make more of now is the smaller stuff, so this one um it's got a little dinosaur in it who's fallen over there was some Sinningia muscicola in there which didn't do so so well but this just is Leucobryum glaucum moss and from H&M, sort of flower vase and to me that's something you can create for next to nothing and my friend 3D printed the dinosaur so I think that's a really fun um a fun thing for children is being able to add their own figurines in there.

[19:52] Ben Newell So yeah the Sinningia and the Leucobryum glaucum and I think this would actually last quite a long time without too much intervention. I'll leave the top off as well just for some for some airflow uh but my favorite; I've got three of my favorites, four actually because I think there's one behind me um so starting with this one, I'm being mindful to try and stay in front of the um microphone. So this one's specklinia dressleri which is growing on the tree fern. I made the mistake of covering it in um this moss mix which is milled sphagnum with um fern spore and moss spore in it because the ferns have germinated and I had to trim it back yesterday because I didn't want you to see how overgrown it had gotten um so yeah I'm having to sort of pull those out.

[20:45] Jane Perrone Yeah.

[20:46] Ben Newell As and when um but the moss, a really interesting story about this moss, so this is perobrium dozianum which I think is native to China so someone came to a workshop shop that I did and brought me a clump of this and I'd seen that they use it a lot over um like there's a few Singaporean content creators and people in Malaysia who use this moss and I think it looks amazing um but she had just taken it on a flight, which I don't think you're meant to do you're not meant to take plants on a flight, and said oh I brought you a present. So I'm not not sure how many people have this moss in this country but that small clump I got from her has turned into- I've got quite a bit of it now because all I do is take off little bits like this and then use them elsewhere. So that's one of my favourite terrariums with that tiny specklinia orchid, you're more than welcome to have a cutting from there if you like.

[21:43] Jane Perrone That's- I mean mosses are amazing. Have you read the book um the book on moss by um Robin Wall Kimmerer? That's a really-

[21:52] Ben Newell It is great.

[21:52] Jane Perrone -great. I mean as a moss enthusiast that's that's the book that really, well for me, just opened up my mind to the world of mosses just amazing stuff.

[22:01] Ben Newell It's yeah and I think that book, everyone should read that book. So I made a smaller version of that terrarium in here with a tiny division of the specklinia dressleri. And then the moss, again, just taking off small, taking the ends off essentially to keep it small and then using them elsewhere. So yeah, I really like to think of them as like little propagation chambers. Some of them last a long time, some of them don't, but little propagation chambers. That's how I view a terrarium.

[22:36] Jane Perrone And where do you get your glassware from? Are you- are you the person who's always looking out for like unusual vessels to use?

[22:42] Ben Newell Yeah so the vast majority of glassware sold for use as a terrarium isn't very nice, it's very generic, mass-produced. I keep an eye on Amazon, Ebay, flea markets if I ever have the chance to go. There was a huge one in Worcester uh in Malvern which is right next to Worcester, where um you could get some incredible vessels from there a good price too but it's quite it can be quite a challenge to find nice terrarium glassware but I'd always encourage people to be creative with online searches don't just put terrarium glassware and buy something because it's really generic stuff. But yeah just being creative with it um old lab glassware, anything really um I really like acrylic boxes um because they can be they're so multifunctional and again very cheap online each one works out at like five pounds or something and I think they look infinitely better than the mass-produced glassware that's made for terrariums - not all of it of course but most of it.

[23:51] Jane Perrone Yeah exactly I love that kind of finding something that nobody else has got or that just looks unusual that's that is part of the enjoyment and a bit of a geeky sort of practical question here: keeping glass clean as somebody who lives in a hard water area any any like hacks on that because that's the one thing I-when I've made terrariums in the past or you know things that have got water in them and glass I'm left with this cloudy look. Which is not great.

[24:19] Ben Newell No and to be honest I've not cleaned a lot of this glassware um yes. So I think first thing is to stay on top of it. Don't let it build up to a point where it's, you know, you have to really scrub it off. Using good quality water. So because I have a lot of vivariums at home with, with animals inside, I do use distilled water, um, for the misting system. So they don't clog up. If you use that in the terrariums then that that's great because it doesn't build up on the glass. Our shower, like even, you know, we clean it frequently, but the hard water in London, it's it's terrible and it's not great for the glass and your terrarium plants. So I think staying on top of it and if you can use good quality water even just using filtered water or bottled water um it's not like we're watering house plants with this water where you would use lots and lots of it you know some of these terrariums are watered once a year um so it's a small amount of water.

[25:17] Jane Perrone Yeah that's the thing isn't it it's it's about the scale of it um but yeah that that's a good that's good tip and I think if you do have a situation where you've got something that is crusted what do you do then? Is there anything you can do other than just elbow grease? Is there anything- it's magical solution?

[25:33] Ben Newell So you know so some glass has, I think it's like a chemical reaction that happens in certain types of glass, where it becomes cloudy and you will never get that clean.

[25:41] Jane Perrone Yeah I've had that with with with things I've had in the past as terrariums and you just think surely this is it must be etched in that it's not coming off.

[25:50] Ben Newell I- yeah that stuff doesn't come off.

[25:52] Jane Perrone Yeah.

[25:52] Ben Newell But otherwise it's just elbow grease um kitchen paper and also some terrariums like are awkward shapes so if you can get your hand into it it's nice and easy but like this you need the long tweezers, a bit of kitchen paper and you need to get into that corner. But if you have something even bigger I don't know perhaps that's a good example maybe tweezers would work in that but some terrariums are huge with a small opening um what I would do is get like thick gauge bonsai wire, wrap it around a few times, tape some kitchen papers to the end and then get in it that way um so yeah. It can be a challenge.

[26:32] Jane Perrone Attention to detail this is what it's all about. So we've talked about I think we haven't talked about this this sort of triangular one here well tell me about that one.

[26:41] Ben Newell So it has an unnamed orchid in it. I brought it from N1 garden centre in London it's a great garden centre um, I actually, I love this style of planting. So this is just a cork tube. And I actually divided this recently because I used some of the orchid elsewhere. But what I did was I took a cork, a hollow cork tube, and I cut it in half. Then filled the middle with sphagnum moss, but good quality sphagnum moss. I think it's really important to use that because, you know, some of that cheaper stuff, it's, I don't know. I don't like the idea of a nice orchid's roots growing in that. This is really good quality um and yeah just I took the orchid from the pot, divided it, popped it along, and it's grown. This was full um I should have probably waited until after the podcast to to divide it but yeah this has grown really nicely and these are actually made by someone in Malaysia who sent me to them three years- sent them to me three years ago. But I think that's a really fun way of uh planting plants in a terrarium which almost mimics that epiphytic tree branch um and I got the idea from someone called Matthew Schwartz, he has a channel called Another World Terraria and that as a source for information about rare and miniature terrarium plants it's second to none. It's a really interesting page.

[28:10] Jane Perrone Yeah there's a- I mean does that is that going to flower? Has that flowered that orchid?

[28:16] Ben Newell It hasn't flowered yet.

[28:17] Jane Perrone Will it though? I mean in those conditions do you think it might do?

[28:20] Ben Newell I don't know. I mean it's I really like the foliage.

[28:24] Jane Perrone Yes yeah.

[28:25] Ben Newell I mean if it flowers that'd be great but if it didn't I wouldn't be too disappointed.

[28:30] Jane Perrone So we talked about, I think we've talked about most of these ones up here any- what about these other two on the other side here?

[28:35] Ben Newell So this one is a jewel orchid oh I can't reach it. I'm gonna get up and get it. Which has flowered actually. Oops.

[28:46] Jane Perrone Oh yes.

[28:49] Ben Newell So actually- I actually made these two terrariums for the announcement of my book because they're actually bookends.

[28:58] Jane Perrone Ah these are the bookend ones. Yeah, I remember seeing these.

[29:01] Ben Newell So they kind of sit like that.

[29:03] Jane Perrone Yeah.

[29:04] Ben Newell And then I've got those small LED lights that sit on top. And yeah, these must be about, I don't know, five months old. When was April?

[29:17] Jane Perrone It's the summer holidays, but I couldn't tell you. I've totally lost track. Five months ago, yeah, roughly.

[29:22] Ben Newell Yeah, something like that. So yeah, this has a jewel orchid in it. I'm not sure of the species, but it's flowered. I should probably trim that flower. And I will take this out soon and use it elsewhere. I never really had much luck with jewel orchids to be completely honest with you um but this is planted in like a bed of sphagnum uh leaf litter, I use a lot of leaf litter and leaf mould, um and this one is doing okay maybe maybe not so great but...

[29:51] Jane Perrone Do you- I mean there must be some, terrarium fails. You must have sometimes where it just goes absolutely tits up to use a technical word and you just think that's- I can't- I can't- I mean do you document that? Do you talk about that? Do you- how do you handle when it goes wrong?

[30:09] Ben Newell So I think being a content creator it was something I did a lot more like in the early days but now being more specific with what content I put out there um it's not something I document as much, though I happily talk about it. More often than not I'm glad to say they do work um but I've I've had so many fail, like so many. I've wasted a lot of money. Well it wasn't wasted because I learned a lot right but um I've killed a lot of plants um along the way both terrarium plants and non-terrarium plants, house plants, plants on the allotment, in the garden, lots of things didn't work for me um but that's like the key part of learning I think, and taking it back to terrarium building, I think if you do just get the basics right, light, soil, and the watering. You know, it's kind of hard to go wrong. But I've had a lot of failure with my terrariums, for sure.

[31:07] Jane Perrone How does that usually materialise? Is it you sort of think something's going okay, and then you really have a close look at it and realise that something's completely melted or you've got mould raging through the...

[31:19] Ben Newell Yeah, I mean, mould, if you use the good materials, isn't such a problem. But me and any kind of begonia don't seem to get on.

[31:30] Jane Perrone This seems to be turning into the begonia hate podcast because we had lots of begonias- I did actually bring a begonia with me up there. So to show that, you know, there's a couple actually. Yeah. To show that I do love my begonias actually. But I mean, there's begonias and begonias, right? It's a really big genus.

[31:48] Ben Newell Yeah. There's a few epiphytic ones I have, which are amazing. Like you can't kill them, even if you tried. But then some of the more, I don't know some of the other varieties just, they just melt.

[32:01] Jane Perrone Yeah.

[32:03] Ben Newell A friend of mine uh sent me some plants recently and he has a huge list of begonia on his website and I was like I actually don't want any right now um send me the other stuff I think I'll just kill it.

[32:15] Jane Perrone Yeah yeah it's tricky isn't it? But I suppose um like we always say with indoor gardening I guess light is a thing. People do get this very wrong. I mean, how do you know, what are the signs that light is going badly? What are the danger signs where you've got to think to yourself, I've got to take some action here, both too much and too little?

[32:38] Ben Newell I mean, etiolation is one that's quite obvious. Like you can see the moss in the bottom of here isn't growing as it should.

[32:44] Jane Perrone So stretching out, becoming spindly.

[32:48] Ben Newell In the search of light. It's yeah I think generally just if the plants don't look healthy you know and the note- the distance between the the leaves those nodes that aren't they're quite long then you know it's going to be hard to to rectify that, I usually cut them back and um and then replant them but it's such an important one like you know obviously. And I think with terrarium building I would encourage everyone to purchase a light meter, they're inexpensive you can get them on your phone because it will tell you literally if your terrarium or plant will survive in this space. With terrarium building I think north-facing windows are great because it's- you get all of that light but without any direct sun so you can almost guarantee that a prop box or a terrarium placed in a north-facing window is going to do well. We have east and west, so we get a bit of the sun in there, or quite a lot of sun. And it's interesting, because I have quite a large terrarium, which I didn't bring with me, with a ficus microcarpa, you know, those bulbous ones, sold at Ikea. And it's grown exceptionally well, and it gets blasted with the sun at the back end of the day. So I think you kind of have to figure out what works for you. But you do need to ensure that your terrarium plants are getting enough light. And for me, a light meter has been very helpful.

[34:27] Jane Perrone It's a real revelation when you start using that and you go into a corner like it's literally it's literally on almost zero in the darkest corners of your home. And and then as soon as you're moving toward the light, the levels just increase exponentially. And you just it's a it's an eye opener.

[34:43] Ben Newell And even what you see as what you think might be a bright spot, like probably isn't enough for the plants that you want to grow there. I love Darryl Cheng's book um i have not read his latest one but that that was got what got me really thinking about light and yeah I bought a light meter because of Darryl Cheng.

[35:02] Jane Perrone Yeah well he's- guest- guest and friend of the show very very um uh useful advice there and when you- I always find when you look at, if you get a chance to have a look at commercial growing stats on what level of light they're using to grow common house plants. It is way higher than anything you're going to be able to get in your home. And that's why when you get the plant out of the plant shop straight from the nursery, that's why it looks amazing because it's been grown evenly under very carefully controlled light, which obviously we just don't have at home. Um but yeah light is just absolutely vital isn't it and uh you don't want them to boil but the likelihood is greater that they're just not getting enough.

[35:48] Ben Newell Yeah and I think with terrarium building you have to be, soil is obviously a very important component of growing plants in any horticultural setting but with terrarium building I noticed that when I started using bonsai mediums, the terrariums I made had a much higher success rate and they are expensive. And if you're only making one or two, perhaps buying a pre-made soil is best. But I love bonsai soil so much. Things like Akadama and Lava Rock and Molar Clay. It's great in soil, you can grow moss on it. You can grind Akadama down and put it on the side of a terrarium and grow moss on it. It's yeah, I'm a huge advocate for using bonsai mediums.

[36:37] Jane Perrone Because a lot of times people are using substrates in terrariums that seem to be just like the organic matter like it's just too hard and that's where you're getting the mold problems from presumably?

[36:47] Ben Newell Presumably. I think with making a terrarium soil the bonsai mediums on their own um I was speaking with someone about this who uses a semi-hydro mix and like if you use that in a plant pot you kind of have to flush it through to so the granules absorb all the water. Now if you were to just use semi-hydro or bonsai soil in a terrarium you can't really flush it through which is why you need to mix it with something. I mean bonsai mediums are water retentive but you need to mix it with something that's you know like a good compost or coir, leaf mould, just something so it can hold on to the the moisture um but yeah I'm very much team bonsai soil Ithink it's, I think it's amazing.

[37:32] Jane Perrone Is it becoming easier to get hold of because it's become so much more popular?

[37:36] Ben Newell Yeah so Akadama was, is always imported from Japan. I think Brexit made it difficult to get lava rock into the country. I've always found it easy to get molar clay, I think molar clay is incredible um and these-

[37:52] Jane Perrone Is that the one where people get it from like it's sold as like a- like um to clear up spills on the floors of of garages like...

[38:01] Ben Newell It's very multifunctional so it's used for as a cat litter, it's used um for mechanics on diesel spills and I think it's used in lots of other industries but it's it's amazing to use um in a terrarium with bonsai as well. That's something I got very interested in for a period of time um and that's where I learned about the importance of soil. I was lucky enough to spend time with Peter Chan and Harry Harrington and um they would always talk about the quality of your soil and how that um reflects in the quality of the tree and yeah it just surprises me they're not used more or they are being used more um but I was surprised people weren't using them more, especially when I was interested in bonsai and in terrarium building. I certainly wasn't the first person to do it. But I'm seeing more and more people use bonsai mediums now.

[39:02] Jane Perrone Yeah, that's interesting. Let's move on to some of your other pursuits. You've branched out, excuse the pun, from plants to animals. So you've got a bit of a menagerie now. I mean, I was looking through your socials yesterday. Michelangelo the tortoise, dart frogs, praying mantises, your jumping spider. I mean, how does that change what you do and how you work? And what what do the animals, the creatures bring that's different to what you're doing?

[39:35] Ben Newell I think a terrarium in itself is a very interesting thing. You talk- think about the different cycles that occur within it, the length of time it can last. When you add say isopods and springtails it then opens up the conversation about decomposition, their role within that um and then you can go into inverts invertebrates so like you're playing mantises and things like that. The story of- I mean I'd never, I always wanted pets when I was young but my mother wouldn't allow it um my sister did get a leopard gecko which I was very angry she was allowed one and I wasn't but she was eight years older than me um but then went to university and left the gecko with us and then I realised you had to feed them crickets. And back then I was like freaked out by things like that.

[40:26] Ben Newell But at this age now, learning about praying mantis and jumping spiders and, you know, the other animals like the small glass frogs that I have and dart frogs, and then mixing with those communities, because they're huge. I didn't realise this, the isopod community is giant. There are some people who have built some very successful businesses selling isopods. They're sometimes used as food for reptiles and other things. But I quite like keeping isopods almost as a pet. It's like my pet bug. I think there's just a very fascinating story behind these animals. Praying mantids go through a series of moults. And I'm not sure if you've ever seen a praying mantis egg sack hatch, I hadn't until the other day. Where 300 of these mantids abseiled down out of this egg sack, and I had no idea and this I have this egg sack I caught the footage but then I had 300 praying mantises um which I didn't really know what to do with. Not all of them make it and I gave some to some friends, if you want a praying mantis you're welcome to one, um but it's a really fascinating world. The jumping spiders are highly intelligent um they almost have like a personality.

[41:53] Ben Newell Um and then going on to things like the frogs and the lizards I think it's um quite often people will say they don't like the idea of animals in captivity but I think it's a there's a bigger conversation to be had than just that. You know captive breeding programs have stopped animals from going extinct and there are re-introductory programs. I was speaking with a friend of mine who is he's um doing his master's and he's working with an organisation in South America where they're giving him some wild caught glass frogs to breed and then they're going to reintroduce them into the wild. So I think it's it's not always as it seems it's not just an animal in a box, there is more to it often than what we see on social media.

[42:47] Jane Perrone Yeah absolutely and these uh creatures are fascinating. I think you've got some have you got some um ranitomeya imitator dart frogs? You have? Well I was reading about these the other day for something I'm working on uh because they use the phytotelmata the uh little tiny pools in dieffenbachias as um places for their young. And um I didn't realise this, that because I'd seen that they have different, there's different um what's the word? I suppose you might use the word morph, I suppose, different versions of them. And I didn't realize that actually they're imitating three other species of much more poisonous dart frogs.

[43:31] Ben Newell I didn't know this either until I did the research when I was writing the script for the video. They are fascinating.

[43:39] Jane Perrone Yeah, they're amazing creatures. I was like, so they have different versions of themselves. Which, you know, different specimens will have a different camouflage, pretending to be this much more poisonous frog which it's not. I mean how does that happen? It's amazing.

[43:56] Ben Newell That- these, I have two, and they're so shy um but they are so small, they call them thumbnail frogs because they don't get much bigger than your thumbnail um but they are incredible, they live in a huge vivarium um it's one of the BiOrb Earths it's it's really something um and yeah and they are they're beautiful. But they also they're not poisonous in captivity because they don't eat the required insects which give them the poison so pretty much any um dart frog you have in captivity is not poisonous.

[44:30] Jane Perrone Oh that's interesting. Oh that's really interesting. Yeah they are absolutely fascinating and I find those interactions with plants, you know the way they they use plants and work with plants is absolutely fascinating um they're they are really cool and they just look beautiful in your videos as well but you must spend a lot of time with your camera just waiting for those things to do what you're... I mean you can't direct a dart frog or a jumping spider.

[44:55] Ben Newell Any animal it's... you know I spent eight hours the other day filming a five legged praying mantis try and catch a fly because it was a key part of this video.

[45:09] Jane Perrone I watched that video the other day. Yeah, the one that had a damaged leg.

[45:12] Ben Newell And it's regrown the leg completely now.

[45:15] Jane Perrone That's amazing.

[45:17] Ben Newell And... It's it's a bit strange sometimes when I speak with my friends from when I was a postie they're like oh so like how are things going and I'm like yeah it's going pretty well I spent all day filming a baby gecko in a lego set that I built for it. It's um yeah it's quite surreal sometimes but- but yeah you can't make animals do- you just have to keep that camera rolling and hope that they do something.

[45:41] Jane Perrone Yeah I know what you mean about jumping spiders even jumping spiders is in my garden like is it the zebra spider the ones they do seem to have a- they are real characters I mean I've- sitting on my patio and one's just been kind of wandering about and then they're kind of like they've just got something about them that is just very charismatic those jumping spiders it's...

[46:01] Ben Newell I completely agree I- I'm on my, I've had two jumping spiders um my second one, it seems bolder than the first one that I had. It recognises, I'm not sure if it actually recognises me but it knows when it's feeding time um and I didn't- they look very cute. Like if you look at jumping spider head on it has like that one eyebrow that looks like one eyebrow, you know it has like cute features it looks like it has two eyes um but when it revealed its fangs when it goes to eat this cricket you can see like it's actually a very skilled hunter um but this is what I really love it's it's easy to tell stories about these animals because they're so interesting. There's so many praying mantids, so many kinds of jumping spider, so many kinds of interesting frog. You know I actually have a frog phobia um which was crippling when I was younger I had to leave a job as a gardener because of it um in the same way my sister's scared of spiders and if there was a spider in the room she would just... she would bolt, she would go.

[47:08] Ben Newell For me it's similar with frogs but it's very it's like large frogs I struggle with and last night, I have some tadpoles of starry night reed frogs that I'm raising and they're they must be about two weeks from emerging from the water and I went to the fridge yesterday because we've got it we have a small flat so the sort of aquarium they're in is right next to the fridge. So I went to the fridge yesterday to get a drink of milk and there was the tiniest white frog who had just emerged sat on top of the aquarium. And like, it took me by surprise. I had to get Grace to come and put it back into its home. But yeah, it's really fascinating. And I've connected with some amazing people as well who create content on animals and terrariums. So it's a very interesting space and I love the merge of terrarium community, the vivarium community, the aquarium community it's like yeah it's really exciting. I'm going to Animal Con in um in October so I'll get to meet a lot of these creators and it's yeah it's gonna be a lot of fun.

[48:15] Jane Perrone Yeah that sounds fun. Well local to me, I have- we have a local amphibian which is uh very, which is an invasive species in this country but not actually invasive at all. Have you heard of the midwife toad? Which is a mediterranean toad uh and it freaks a lot of people out around where I live because it sounds like... you know when your smoke alarm's running out of battery? The beep sounds exactly and I mean exactly like that. So lots of people are like calling up electricians and saying I've got something going wrong there's some piece of machinery's not working and it's actually the midwife toad and they they like to, because they're a Mediterranean species, they like to hang out in like piles of rock and brick walls and things. So they're just everywhere. And you don't see them very often, but they are really, they're cute little toads. And they're really, really lovely. The males carry the eggs on their backs, which is why they're called midwife toad. They're really, really cool, but probably not great in the terrarium. But I just love the fact that people are like thinking they've got an electronic issue and it's actually it's just a toad.

[49:25] Ben Newell It's funny when I moved to London so my workspace was downstairs when I was in Worcester and that's where my glass frogs were. When I moved to London um my workspace was right next to our bedroom and the the glass frogs were put in there and I would just hear this cheep two or three times a minute. I was like what is that and then when you go into the room you realise how loud it is and it's the glass frogs, the male glass frogs calling and I described it as a smoke alarm low on battery. We got used to it in the end but the first few nights all the way through the night, three times a minute cheep cheep.

[50:05] Jane Perrone It's a very, they're very, it's a fascinating world. I mean these are the ones that have the where you can actually see their inside their abdomen the their digestive system and what- does that serve a purpose? Why, why do they do that?

[50:17] Ben Newell I think it's it's mainly for camouflage, like they have the ability to hide their red blood cells so they become even more transparent. They are really fascinating creatures and again so tiny um, it's yeah it's it's a bit sad really because I know a lot a lot of them are being brought into the country wild caught um which obviously isn't a good thing which is which is why these captive breeding programs are important we know people are going to keep them as pets, so preserving wild populations by, you know, breeders breeding them is, I think, is a good thing. Because any sort of exotic pet was wild caught at some point. And we're not going to stop the exotic pet industry. So, yeah, this emphasises the importance of captive breeding programs. But, yeah, and they're really cute. These animals, these frogs are super cute.

[51:11] Jane Perrone Absolutely. I think you're either the kind of person that, you know, I mean, my daughter's got a milk snake. So, you know, we have rats in the freezer. You're either kind of a rats in the freezer kind of person who's prepared to do that for your pet or you have a problem with all of these kind of things. I mean, you must have viewers who, some people, as you say, phobias exist. Have you ever had that in a workshop or a situation where you've had to kind of like talk somebody down from a real fear of creepy crawlies, as people term them?

[51:44] Ben Newell I always tell people you don't have to add them. It's not a necessity. Children seem to love to do it. But, you know, you don't have to add springtails to your terrarium. They're not going to cure mould issues that really stems back to using good quality materials, but they will they do feed on mould and they do help their detritivores they do help the decaying process so they can be beneficial but they're not a necessity. But yeah so some people like you know if I say oh yeah and we do have some isopods, some people really don't like that.

[52:17] Jane Perrone Yeah absolutely. Yeah no I know it's strange isn't it? I think it's a human instinct and particularly, I think, in the houseplant world, the temptation is to think that anything moving in your soil is a deadly enemy. And oftentimes, you know, you get sent a picture. What's going onI've lifted up this pot and there's all these springtails. It's good news. It's good news. I love a springtail.

[52:40] Ben Newell You want your soil to be alive and not sterilised.

[52:43] Jane Perrone No, exactly. And that's important for your terrariums, I suppose. Is there anything living that you don't want to be finding in your terrariums that if you find, you're kind of like, oh, no.

[52:54] Ben Newell I found a flatworm.

[52:56] Jane Perrone Oh, really?

[52:57] Ben Newell Yeah. And I was really surprised by that because they're quite ominous looking things. And I found one in... I was given some leaf mould. I love leaf mould. I think it's amazing. And I'd put it into a terrarium. And I saw something moving. And then, yeah, it was a flatworm, which are invasive. Yeah. So you wouldn't want one of those. And I think the guidelines is to kill them and dispose of them. I mean, really, mites can be a problem. You can have predatory mites, which feed on springtails. So you know you want more springtails than mites but it's I don't know it kind of just whatever happens happens and um I kind of just roll with it. I don't like to try and eradicate a mite population in a terrarium they they've got a right to be there.

[53:49] Jane Perrone Yeah absolutely. I mean I did also we were talking about slugs before we started recording and uh you know there are mites that live on slugs if you ever like get up close and personal with a slug and have a look at it there's probably mites wandering all over it because there are specialist slug mites.

[54:04] Ben Newell We have them on us as well right?

[54:05] Jane Perrone Yeah we've got them on ourselves. I do like to say that to people when they're talking about it's like you realise you've got them on your face right now. It's like yeah we don't like to think of that but you're absolutely right.

[54:16] Ben Newell No but it's true and I used to be very squeamish with- with things and I think first of all going traveling to India and um Southeast Asia really really helped that but then also you know this um...

[54:29] Jane Perrone And having an allotment as well. I mean on an allotment you're gonna come across all kinds of- I mean you know all human life and all animal life is there on the allotment isn't it?

[54:40] Ben Newell Yeah yeah I didn't see a single frog on my allotment which was um which was for me probably a good thing but not a good sign in general um but yeah you're right you see a lot we had badger problems and um yeah. I miss having that allotment though.

[54:55] Jane Perrone Do you think you'll ever go back to it?

[54:57] Ben Newell My dream would be to have to retire early and to have a nice, not too big garden, nice walled garden where I could grow vegetables. Spend my days listening to the radio.

[55:10] Jane Perrone That sounds absolutely heavenly.

[55:11] Ben Newell That would be my that's my dream but like to get there I have I've got like I'm gonna I'm enjoying the path I'm on.

[55:17] Jane Perrone Yeah absolutely. I mean as you say like when you're talking to you know colleagues from your previous work and you're sort of saying as I say I mean it's it doesn't sound too bad spending hours watching a jumping spider it sounds pretty good. I mean obviously there's all the um the background to that which is you know there's there's business to be done. There's important things you need to do. Let's get into that for a minute. Like what people will want to know, how are you actually producing this stuff? Do you have a lot of fancy kit? Where are you recording? Do you have anyone working for you? How does that all work?

[55:53] Ben Newell I do everything on my own. For context, I built an audience of about a million followers just with my smartphone. I edited in app on Instagram and TikTok, which is just a complete no-no um I then upgraded to iMovie but iMovie's not very good um I then bought a small Sony ZV-1 camera. It's not very good you can film for six minutes at a time pretty much. So and I still to this day I don't really know how to use a camera that well, I do I've recently switched to using manual focus when I'm um filming animals and that has been really it's been a game changer, but I'm just learning as I go along. To be really specific I use a Lumix GH5 camera, which actually belongs to my girlfriend. Um, but I really liked that. I'm going to upgrade it soon, but all the filming, editing, script writing, everything, I do everything, but I do want to delegate that eventually because it is, um, as we were speaking about before editing takes so much time. Filming... I think I'll always do the filming.

[57:05] Ben Newell Maybe have some other people come on board at some point. But yeah I'd love to delegate it and I think going forwards I'd love to be able to build our team where we can make incredible content about terrariums and animals and um and yeah it's yeah it's been a strange ride but I've learned a lot on the way and I think when you're, when you do go on this path you do meet people who can help you. So I do, I do know people who know how to use cameras, who know about lighting and um so yeah you can always lean on people with this sort of thing.

[57:37] Jane Perrone Yeah absolutely. But it- it does- you know this is how it starts you know in your bedroom doing this stuff yourself, you're on a steep learning curve but hopefully you're having fun at the same time. And I mean it's ended up with these some amazing collabs that you've done with like Disney and Marvel. I mean are there any...tell me about how that was but also any you know dream collabs that you want to sort of put out into the universe in case anyone's uh...

[58:02] Ben Newell If I had to choose one brand to work with it'd probably be Lego. I love Lego I always have since I was young so I would love to be able to work with Lego um Disney and Marvel that was in one in one collab um it was for the Ant-Man movie. I'd never seen any Marvel movies really so I had to do my homework there. Then that was the first real job I had that that was well-paid. Like YouTube had always brought in income, TikTok was up and down, and then I did workshops, but that was the first big brand deal I ever had. Then I did, and I think it's really interesting, the topic of making money as a content creator, especially in horticulture.

[58:50] Ben Newell Horticulture is like notoriously an industry where people perhaps aren't that well paid. Certainly compared to the amount of work they do, because it's hard work a lot of the time. And I think content creation is, it does give people the opportunity to get very well paid for the work they do. So um I think being able to create good quality videos is the is the business card that enables people to see you and then and then yeah so and then I did a a job with Paramount which was fun for um I forgot the name of the tv series uh the The Castaways which is is also a book. So I did a video for them, which again, it was very well paid, but I was lucky to have a brand deal with BiOrb. So this is, I make content for them on a retainer basis, which is really helpful because it's difficult when you're self-employed to make money sometimes, especially as a content creator. But then to be within a niche space like horticulture can also be difficult but then to go even further niche in terrarium building, you know it can be difficult to generate income so but I think it all comes down to making good quality videos yeah and telling stories that are going to capture the attention of not just people in the terrarium space or horticultural space but people like universally.

[1:00:27] Jane Perrone And how did the, how did the ant-man terrarium go down with the Marvel fandom because I mean that's quite uh like there's people who are I mean that's not it's not my it's not my jam but uh there might there might that must be quite a lot of pressure.

[1:00:43] Ben Newell I mean I would do the terrarium differently now.

[1:00:45] Jane Perrone Right.

[1:00:46] Ben Newell There was- there were people- it was a mixed bag, some people were like oh we don't like the way this looks it's it's it's rubbish and then some people really liked it. I think um I was so almost like nervous about creating a video for Disney that I ended up getting a team to work with me on this I had like my friends come in with their good cameras and good sound gear when I think and this is no um criticism on them they did a great job. But I think if I could go, if I could do it now, I would do it differently. But yeah, it was interesting seeing what some of the Marvel fans said about it. But it was my own version of the quantum realm. So it was very much like open for interpretation.

[1:01:38] Jane Perrone How do you deal with that? With that many followers, you must get some kickback and some nasty comments and things. How does- how do you deal with that? Is it- have you got a thick skin or do you find that that difficult or has that got easier as you've got more experienced?

[1:01:53] Ben Newell It got- it gets easier with experience um people are always not everyone's going to like what you do I think I remove the emotion from it. It doesn't happen that often. I remove the emotion from it, if someone wants to say something nasty to me online that's that's fine you can say it but it's not going to upset me. I've had people talk about my heritage um you know the way I look it's this just this just comes with being online so yeah people deal with it differently but for me I just I don't feed it I just ignore it. Unless someone says something you know like about my heritage or something then I'll probably bite back but yeah I've got used to it. Not that- this is the wrong way it doesn't happen that often as you said with experience you learn how to deal with things like this better.

[1:02:46] Jane Perrone Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. There's always gonna be somebody who like doesn't who doesn't have an inside voice and just wants to throw everything out there, every thought that come- passes into their brain.

[1:02:58] Ben Newell Of course. And like also if if I receive criticism from my girlfriend or someone I love or like, you know... Then yeah, I'd listen to that but some dude sat behind a keyboard in America with confederate flags all over his Facebook page like I'm just not gonna care what you have to say to me.

[1:03:17] Jane Perrone I know. I mean yeah that's the thing isn't it you gotta you've got to sort of uh put it into context but I mean at the same time like I imagine we we you're you're in a way and I'm in- I am- certainly am in a privileged position in that you've kind of got to where you are and uh it's... You've had enough time and experience of life to kind of be able to cope with it um uh but online can be a sort of a scary place I think if you don't have that kind of uh backup.

[1:03:48] Ben Newell Absolutely there's different levels of it too. I think ultimately I'm making quite wholesome content so you know I'm not talking about politics or you know divisive issues. So I don't tend to get too many bad comments but you know certain people making certain types of content will get a lot more of that and yeah I think it's um it's it's certainly a problem for certain creators.

[1:04:14] Jane Perrone Yeah I mean let's- we- you know this is late night On The Ledge so we need to spill some tea I mean is there anything anything in the terrarium world that really you want to sort of call out or uh say look come on let's have let's change this because there must be things out there that uh you're looking at and just despairing over.

[1:04:36] Ben Newell I think anyone who's using the term self-sustaining ecosystem to sell a product I think is it's it's just it's a lie it's not a self-sustaining ecosystem. Anyone who tells you that is either misinformed or they're trying to sell you something which um if you listen to that advice it's going to die and then you know you've had a negative experience with a terrarium and I think a lot of people would have had this, you know, a lot of people will say, oh, they don't work, they just die, they become messy, so, and I think... Self-sustaining ecosystem, and a lot of people use this, is a misleading term. Sure if you have a terrarium like David Latimer's that's lasted 50 years then yeah you can say that's a self-sustaining-

[1:05:21] Jane Perrone Oh is he the guy with the carboy the one- that's been like was in all the tabloids and everything.

[1:05:27] Ben Newell Yeah so-

[1:05:28] Jane Perrone Is that real? Is that a real- is he- does he- I mean has it been-

[1:05:33] Ben Newell I mean as far as I know I'd love to go and see it I think-

[1:05:37] Jane Perrone Is he still alive? Is it still-

[1:05:39] Ben Newell I think he's quite old now.

[1:05:40] Jane Perrone Yeah. This is- so this is this giant glass bottle that's like got a tiny- I mean this is how they, back in the day I mean I'm old enough to remember this the first time around in the 70s and 80s this would be- that was what a terrarium was right? It was one of those big carboys sometimes in green glass sometimes with like you know like miniature or little baby parlour palms and things. That was what people had as terrariums wasn't it and this guy how old is it now? do we know how- is it several decades?

[1:06:07] Ben Newell I think it's 63 or 64 years old and it was only watered once in the early 70s. Oh no, twice. Once on the day of planting and then 10 years later the cork was removed. The only time it was opened.

[1:06:19] Jane Perrone Right.

[1:06:20] Ben Newell And then it was watered again. And I think it was a single Tradescantia cutting was put inside of it.

[1:06:24] Jane Perrone Tradescantia. Oh my God. That's another one.

[1:06:27] Ben Newell I knew this was going to hit.

[1:06:29] Jane Perrone It's triggering me now. I mean, I love Tradescantias, but in a terrarium, like, just no.

[1:06:35] Ben Newell Yeah. But I mean, in this instance, it's lasted a long time. But I think, going back to my point about self-sustaining ecosystems, I think it's damaging to the hobby. And I would like to see that not be said anymore.

[1:06:53] Jane Perrone Yeah. How should we be describing terrariums instead? What would be the better-

[1:06:58] Ben Newell Little propagation chambers or... I don't know like a micro ecosystem. It is a little ecosystem, the ambient room temperature combined with the humidity of a terrarium does create an ecosystem where you can grow an orchid or a you know or moss or a tiny saxifraga but like I said at the start it's I think it's um, you know if I was selling someone a terrarium the first thing I would say to them would be like you know it's like a house plant you're going to have to repot it um you're going to have to perform some maintenance on it. I hear all the time people online on their website saying you know it's there's no maintenance you know if you listen to this advice if you listen to that advice with a house plant you know your house plant would suffer and it's the same thing with a terrarium it's just you know it's in a it's in a pot with no drainage holes and it has a lid.

[1:07:57] Ben Newell So I think it's really important to um to sort of like get good information across, and I do think um I'm hopeful that in a similar way to the aquarium hobby that's a lot more established than terrarium building we're going to see terrarium building get more popular. I think it's extremely accessible um not to say negative things about the aquatics hobby but there's like an entry level, which requires you to spend some money. You know, you have to test your water parameters. You have to introduce like certain kinds of fish and plants and then it can be very difficult. Whereas I do think terrarium building you know this cheap jar from amazon or h&m or an empty spirits bottle. With less than five pounds worth of materials can create something quite beautiful. I think that's a real strength for the terrarium hobby.

[1:08:55] Jane Perrone I have to say also thank you because also on this table we've got something you brought for me, I've brought you nothing in return which I feel bad about but uh Ben has bought me this tiny - now long-term listeners will know my love of the saxifragas is strong and um I've got these tiny uh saxifraga stolonifera, is it actually got a cultivar like is it got a name this-

[1:09:20] Ben Newell Yakushima or just micro.

[1:09:22] Jane Perrone It's a very small one so in the back here we've got my sort of regular size ones in fact those are sort of slightly dwarfed because they're in a bowl but these are really tiny. I guess for terrariums ideal .

[1:09:33] Ben Newell Perfect that is probably the perfect terrarium plant, it doesn't grow any higher than a few centimetres and it will spread. So I was sent a clump from um someone in China and since then and it's been about a year, I've given a lot away to friends and I still have a considerable- well I have a few plants at home.

[1:09:56] Jane Perrone Yeah yeah a good clump. Well I mean I'm really glad to have that because I do love these plants um and I shall have to do something with them.

[1:10:04] Ben Newell It will need to go in a terrarium.

[1:10:05] Jane Perrone Yeah I'm gonna have to you're basically just forcing me to- I mean I have got you know and despite the fact I haven't done any terrariums for ages I still do pick up pieces of glass and think oh yes that'll make a good terrarium. So now I've got to actually follow through on that which I'll do. So so what I'm thinking about is I'm going to need some of that good akadama soil, bonsai soil maybe and...

[1:10:31] Ben Newell You can take one of these if you want. Like, I mean, and the saxifraga will work perfectly great in there.

[1:10:37] Jane Perrone Oh, that's so good. This is turning out into the perfect episode. Yeah, I love that. And I actually have got a grow light on my desk, which is currently not being used, so even better. So, yeah, I'm excited to try that. And I think that, as you say, that changing your mindset into the idea of it being like a propagation chamber is very, very useful. Because although there is probably less maintenance than a- I don't know a maidenhair fern or something that's going to need watering every few days, it's certainly not no maintenance and I think that can lead people down and so many terrariums are sold already made up.

[1:11:19] Ben Newell That's another one of my, so you asked me about my sort of pet hates within the within the within the terrarium world uh like mass-produced terrariums.

[1:11:28] Jane Perrone Yeah because you- I saw them the other day in like one of the big chain, I can't think which of the chains it was Lidl- it might have been Lidl, I think it was Lidl actually and I'm just thinking I don't know how I just I'm envisaging the production line to make these terrariums it's not going to be great.

[1:11:47] Ben Newell And I think that's something I've always got in my mind is like I want to create something that looks beautiful, it doesn't need to take hours of work um but just sometimes a single plant in a container like you know like with just some moss in a container there was some plants in there but they died. I think is aesthetically a lot more pleasing than um you know cramming loads of these common plants in a in a terrarium. There's even ways you can use common plants to good effect. You know I think um when I was on stage with you at Malvern um taking loads of cuttings from a fittonia plant and then just covering the surface of the soil in fittonia cuttings looks beautiful. Whereas if you just I don't know plonk a fittonia in next to a nephrolepis fern and a tradescantia at the back it's going to look like it was mass produced you know and I think the mass production of terrariums... Not only doesn't look nice but will have a negative impact on people's experience with them, which negatively impacts the terrarium world itself. So yeah but it's getting better I think I think it's getting better and I genuinely believe it's going to have um an upwards trajectory and I think you're going to see it you're going to see more and more of them.

[1:13:14] Jane Perrone That terrarium that you did at the Malvern show the houseplant festival there was really clever because Fittonias, I mean, let's be honest about Fittonias outside terrariums. I mean, they're just so needy. They're just so needy. You know, you can do it, but the amount of monitoring they require to stop them from falling over from not enough water, especially when they're in small containers, it's quite a lot. It's not the easiest thing. as soon as you put them into that terrarium environment that really surprised me that you could put them in there just as cuttings and obviously it shouldn't have done because it's a propagation chamber as you've said but the fact that you could artfully arrange those fittonias in there those nerve plants and I think that fact that you've just got the one type of plant actually the impact is great.

[1:14:09] Ben Newell Yeah and I think it's um like with that- have I been saying saxofraga wrong?

[1:14:15] Jane Perrone Well no there's no wrong pronunciation.

[1:14:19] Ben Newell I heard you say it and I was like have I just embarrassed myself.

[1:14:21] Jane Perrone No not at all not at all because I think Imean I mean I'm the person who says monstera and everyone else seems to say monstera which I swear is an American thing.

[1:14:33] Ben Newell Have you- I don't know if you listen to Epic Gardening um he called um chamomile cham-o-mile.

[1:14:40] Jane Perrone Wasn't that though it wasn't that uh isn't that one of those things. That I mean I'm not gonna- I'm on Tiktok I'm not gonna slag people off on Tiktok but I swear to god people deliberately make mistakes in their video just so they can get people commenting and going oh that's not whatever.

[1:14:56] Ben Newell It's kind of I mean it's kind of smart in a way. I think I think perhaps he did it on purpose um I mean you know.

[1:15:04] Jane Perrone Cham-o-mile that was hilarious.

[1:15:05] Ben Newell It was funny.

[1:15:07] Jane Perrone Chamomile yes well then again I mean you know this is where you know us Brits and you know we get annoyed with Americans saying cilantro and instead of coriander.

[1:15:15] Ben Newell It's jut how people say things.

[1:15:17] Jane Perrone Oh well yeah and um yeah Idon't know I mean as somebody who, Ifeel like it's part- I- running through me like a stick of rock is trying to educate people about plants so the idea of deliberately getting something wrong it's making my whole face twitch thinking about that but I can see why as a strategy

[1:15:38] Ben Newell Engagement tactic.

[1:15:39] Jane Perrone Engagement tactic.

[1:15:40] Ben Newell You know I made a video the other day which was watch what happens when I put a peach in a terrarium but it's a nectarine. So I'm guilty of it, I knew it was a nectarine but I also yeah of course people are gonna be like that's not a peach that's a nectarine and lo and behold the comments.

[1:15:58] Jane Perrone I'd be less bothered about that but I'd be- Yeah, I mean, well, on the saxifra... How do you say it?

[1:16:05] Ben Newell I say saxifraga.

[1:16:07] Jane Perrone Saxifraga. Saxifraga stolonifera. I mean, you know, like, I don't think it really matters. We both knew exactly what we were talking about. There was no confusion. And I always find when you go to other countries, you know, in Europe and further afield, and you then meet botanists and things, and people will be pronouncing genera in all kinds of ways. And you just kind of raise your eyebrows and go, oh, yeah, that's what they're talking about. And that's just, yeah, I try not to get too worried about that because there's no real wrong or right answer. I think it's fine. I think it's fine.

[1:16:41] Ben Newell My initial point about that was if you have a beautiful container and you put a single saxifraga division into that, and then you leave it for six months to a year, then that container is just going to be covered. In that saxifraga and it's gonna look really nice. It's gonna hit a point where it hits the walls and you're gonna have to divide it but that's that's a good thing and on the day it's planted much like a garden it will never look worse because you just have a single cutting in this container with loads of bare soil around it you can top it with some Akadama make it look a bit nicer like I did in here but being patient with it you know it doesn't have to look 100% on day one um and yeah I think being patient I think is really important. One of my final things um it's not necessarily, uh people within the terrarium world who say this but the use of the word terranium.

[1:17:44] Jane Perrone Oh gosh.

[1:17:46] Ben Newell Where does this n come from yeah.

[1:17:50] Jane PerroneYou've now- you've you've hit a button now because I've been doing some shifts in a houseplant shop local to me, Not Another Jungle. And it's amazing. And I love it because it is a really, I love the fact that people coming in the shop, you know, you get everybody on the spectrum from very little knowledge to very experienced. But that's one of the things that I immediately want to make a beeline for a person when they're saying, oh, look, they've got terraniums. And then I've literally got to hold myself back from being, you know, ridiculously pedantic. I don't know where's it come from?

[1:18:23] Ben Newell It's so common honestly.

[1:18:25] Jane Perrone Is it even in the dictionary is that a word? It's not even a word in the dictionary.

[1:18:28] Ben Newell I don't think it is I don't think so but it is so common I don't know I don't know how-

[1:18:34] Jane Perrone It's amazing how that's spread isn't it? But I think you know I mean I just obviously just very politely just say terrarium and hopefully people pick that up. But I mean this is the amazing thing about language it might be in a hundred years time we're all calling them terraniums.

[1:18:48] Ben Newell Yeah yeah let's hope not. But yeah I'd say those are the things really um my gripes with the terrarium world it's generally quite a wholesome world, the people in it are very nice um and yeah I think it's what some creators are doing right now is really exceptional and um I think it has a bright future.

[1:19:10] Jane Perrone But let me let's just let's just bring it back to the tea first though uh any like debates raging in the terrarium not terranium world right now? Is there is what are the there must be a few things where people are like having a big debate about something that's causing controversy. Is there anything like that or is it all agreed and everything's nice.

[1:19:32] Ben Newell I think on the plant side of things certainly it's um generally speaking it's quite tame. When you go into the vivarium space and see how certain people keep animals and then there's a lot of friction.

[1:19:45] Jane Perrone Oh my gosh I know this from the snake from my daughter having a snake like you speak to one person and you say well how often should we be feeding this you know one month old snake or one year old snake and you get five different answers and everyone is really virulent about their answer being the correct one.

[1:20:04] Ben Newell I think-

[1:20:04] Jane Perrone And it's quite intimidating when you come to something like that, having an animal, which is a living being. And you feel more than you do, I think, with plants. You feel like you've got to really make sure you're getting it right.

[1:20:17] Ben Newell Yeah, I agree. And I think with especially with the amphibians and reptiles, because they need nutrition so you have to you know if you just feed a um a glass frog or a dart frog just fruit flies they're going to become malnourished. They need they need um calcium and vitamin A and um numerous other nutrients and people have different way- um schedules on how they feed these animals. So you know you speak to the pet shop, they'll tell you to give it them with every feeding, you speak another pet shop they'll give you other advice. What I've learned is to speak with people or learn from people on Youtube or Reddit who have been doing it for many years. So for me that's always my first port of call like the starry night reed frogs that I have um you don't see them in this country they're very rare so the information on them is very small. But there's a guy Clint's Reptiles online who um based in USA amazing knowledge about it so that is a hundred percent my, where I try and get my information around animals because you're right you have to. It's not like a plant, it's they're not disposable like um not that a plant should be um so you have a- you need to care for this thing as best as you can so yeah.

[1:21:38] Jane Perrone Well I can report the milk snake is fine it's now uh three years three or four years old it's absolutely fine it has been going through one of those, I don't know if you have have this with amphibians but with reptiles where they go through this teenage period where they decide not to eat for a few weeks or months and that's a bit scary but anyway she's fine she's it's all good but it's a it's a weight of responsibility especially for me as somebody who'd never owned that kind of- I know how to deal with dogs and to some extent horses but snakes like I've got yeah i'm just no idea so it's such a learning curve but it has been fascinating and I can see why you wanted to bring those into what you're doing. How much time do you end up spending caring for all these creatures is it is it is that uh a pleasure and a burden?

[1:22:23] Ben Newell Yes like I mean more pleasure more on the pleasure side to anyone who um wants to get animals like that is something you absolutely have to think about. You know I um I get home late sometimes I've got a baby crested gecko at home um I got some frogs, the tortoise, like it's a time expense you have to give time to these animals um so it does take up a considerable amount of time um and when you go on holiday. You know someone's not everyone's going to want to dust fruit flies in calcium and put them in a vivarium for you. So I'm fortunate that a friend of mine at the studio is going to do this for me and um our neighbour is going to look after Michelangelo he's very cute you know he's.

[1:23:10] Jane Perrone He's a tortoise what's not to love.

[1:23:12] Ben Newell Yeah um so yeah I actually forgot your initial question but um...

[1:23:17] Jane Perrone Well like it sounds like you get a lot of joy out of it but like any any animal ownership it's a responsibility.

[1:23:23] Ben Newell It's absolutely a responsibility and it's um yeah loads of people get pets without considering this and end up giving them away or or worse you know it's um so yeah definitely definitely think about that.

[1:23:35] Jane Perrone Yeah exactly well it's been a delight to chat to you um and of course I always say this but I'm going to say it again do go and check out the show notes because uh my daughter will be going through the transcripts and she'll be adding in all the links for the other creators that you've mentioned um I like to keep it in the family but um it'll be a nice interesting chat for her as somebody who loves uh reptiles um so we'll put all that in the show notes and also um uh given that we're starting this break of the show when there's going to be a pause you can go and listen to uh more than 250 other episodes of the show so, you know, there should be enough content there to listen to until the show comes back. But thank you so much for joining me, Ben. It's been a delight to see you and your terrariums. And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what you're doing next. What are you doing next? More books, more videos, more content.

[1:24:33] Ben Newell Yeah, more content. Thanks for having me, by the way. It's been a pleasure.

[1:24:38] Jane Perrone My only other request would be more of your mum. I watched a couple of videos with your mum in, like your mum's epic. I need more of your mum, please.

[1:24:43] Ben Newell Okay, deal. Yeah, deal. And more content is to come.

[1:24:49] Jane Perrone And I'll rep- I'm going to do that. I'm going to plant this in a terrarium, like give it loads of room around and then I'll have to just see how long it takes. I mean, I'm never going to be anything like you, but I'm going to give it a go with these saxifragas. And indeed, that's what I did with that. That dish started out the same way. It started out with all those plants as tiny plants. So I kind of know how it works on a non-terrarium setting so we'll do the same but it's been wonderful Ben thank you so much.

[1:25:15] Ben Newell Thank you for having me Jane.

Host Jane Perrone is joined by terrarium maker extraordinaire Ben Newell (Worcester Terrariums) in the final Late Night On The Ledge episode. Found out more about what makes Ben tick, how he got into terrariums and loads of tips on making your terrarium thrive, from defeating mould to how to keep your terrarium clean.

Want the video version of this episode? It’s here.

This week’s guest

Ben Newell is a content creator, author, and founder of Worcester Terrariums. His impressive portfolio includes partnerships with renowned brands such as Disney, Marvel, Paramount, Waterstones, DK Books and Kraken Rum. Additionally, Ben serves as a global ambassador for Biorb. Ben’s book Hello Tiny World is published by DK Books.

What is Late Night On The Ledge?

Imagine a late night TV chat show featuring your favourite guests, lots of chat, a dash of gossip and the odd rant - that’s what you’re getting when you tune into Late Night On The Ledge. This is the first of four Late Night OTL episodes which will run until the start of September. Two will be audio-only, and two will offer video as well.

Please note: this episode features swearing and probably isn’t suitable for younger ears. If you need to find another episode to listen to, why not check out my themed back catalogue?

Want to support On The Ledge by joining my Patreon to unlock exclusive content, making a one-off donation or leaving a review? Find out more here.

CREDITS

This week's show featured the track Whistle by BenJamin Banger (@benjaminbanger on Insta; website benjaminbanger.com). Many thanks to Up Top Studios for their brilliant work hosting and recording this episode.