One of the then greenhouses at Ottershaw Cacti. Photograph: Jane Perrone

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Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:15] Jane Perrone Hello and welcome to On The Ledge Podcast. It's episode 299. I'm Jane Perrone and this week we're talking cacti and succulents.

[0:28] Jane Perrone I take a delightful toddle around the glasshouses at Ottershaw Cacti and I answer a question about Venus fly traps and grow lights.

[0:43] Jane Perrone Hello and welcome to the show. You may have noticed that the 300th episode is incredibly close. It's only, well, two weeks away. So that's going to be a special one. It's going to be a full all singing, all dancing video production, I'm excited to say. And I want to hear from you. I'd love to have some voice notes from you about what On The Ledge means to you. I did ask for this in the newsletter and I've had precisely zero contributions. A big round zero. So please, if you like On The Ledge, I'd love to hear from you. I know it's one of these things that you probably think, oh yes, I'll put that on my to-do list. I'll get round to it. Do it now.

[1:28] Jane Perrone There's a link for Speakpipe, which is a website you can use to record your message or you can record a voicemail or if you do want to just send me an email I will be putting out a sort of extra extra episode which will be audio only which will include your thoughts about the show and also a little blooper reel and then there'll be the all singing all dancing video so it's going to be a big one I'd love to hear from you on that and it's going to be the kicking off of the late night on the ledge. So that next episode and the few that follow will be a little bit more edgy than normal so there will be swearing potentially and more er, less kid-friendly topics so that's gonna be fun and I've got two fantastic guests so I really hope you'll join me for that next episode. But stick around for this episode because it's very good as well i mean there isn't a bad On The Ledge episode is there?

[2:29] Jane Perrone If you remember a couple of months ago i I did a sort of a big grand tour and I went to visit Mint Plants in Bristol and also Tony Irons. And I also visited Gemma Haigh. Well, the final visit that I did on that trip was to Ottershaw Cacti, which is in Chertsey in Surrey. To find out all about the wonderful cactus and succulent grower, Daniel Jackson and his wife, Jo. show. They appear at many a British garden show with their incredible collection and I got the chance to have a look around it and it was an absolute treasure box of delights as you will hear and indeed see if you go and check out the images in the show notes at janeperrone.com. So without further ado let's get tramping around the nursery at Ottershaw Cacti.

[3:24] Music.

[3:29] Joanne Jackson Hi we are joanne

[3:31] Daniel Jackson And daniel

[3:32] Joanne Jackson Jackson - Ottershaw Cacti.

[3:34] Jane Perrone It's great to be here in this wonderful, greenhouse- this is serious business here we've got a lot of plants that i recognize from your Chelsea displays. I don't know where to start, guys, i'm just i'm just looking around having a bit of a moment here because you've got so many of my absolute favorite plants here where did this all start - how did how did we get to this point was it just a childhood cactus collection that went a bit out of control Daniel?

[4:02] Daniel Jackson Yeah I started when I was 11 I went to the supermarket with my parents and just bought a cactus that we saw at the co-op and gradually over the years I've gotten more and more.

[4:15] Jane Perrone Just a bit ...

[4:16] Daniel Jackson Yeah, when I went out to work, the guy i was working for, he had a collection and that just sort of helped push it on even further.

[4:26] Jane Perrone Now you do shows, you sell plants, w hat's really catching people's attention in the world of cacti and succulents right now? What are you taking a lot of to the shows this year to sell?

[4:39] Daniel Jackson We ll probably the succulents are more popular than the cacti um and I would say aeoniums and echeverias are the real things that catch people's attention at the moment.

[4:52] Joanne Jackson Although we have had a big burst of houseplant succulents - so things that will grow well inside because most succulents will want the bright lights of the sort of mediterranean type environment but but there are some that do really well inside in shadier locations and those have become really quite popular.

[5:11] Jane Perrone So are we talking about things like Riipsalis here orthe lovely fishbone cactus Isee here, is is it that kind of thing we're talking about for indoors that you find works well?

[5:22] Joanne Jackson Yes that sort of thing, and also Ceropegia, so the string of hearts, that's always quite a fun one, people are interested in that and also um the Senecio rowleyanus, that will grow quite well as um indoors draped over a bookcase and things like that - people are trialing more succulents inside so we're looking just to help them along the way.

[5:43] Jane Perrone yeah absolutely i think that with the string of of hearts I worry - I find with my plant that it's so sensitive to light, so if you get if you get a plant um that is going a bit stringy and long, I just try to cut it off and move it into more light - it's very very flexible. Let's go and have a look at this actually, it's over here - these beautiful string of hearts. Now i can tell that this one's getting loads of light because the leaves arenice and compact and fleshy, although this must be a different - is this a different variety here or is this the species?

[6:18] Daniel Jackson Yes so this one's the variegated form.

[6:21] Jane Perrone OK, yes, Imean these are so lovely and healthy. What Ilove about these is you can just sort of take a set of shears and just go CLIP because they do get really really long. And it's also interesting here to see that you've got the seed pods which are exploding off here and creating a little a little parachute - you might get some of these poking up in some of your pots if that they fall.

[6:46] Joanne Jackson Often if you lift up the drape of the flowers there's these corms underneath - they're really good as well, but I'm just lifting this one I can't see any at the minute.

[6:55] Jane Perrone Yeah, they...

[6:56] Daniel Jackson That growth is fairly new.

[6:57] Joanne Jackson Oh, yes, so it's on the older growth.

[7:01] Jane Perrone Yeah, it's an amazing one, isn't it? It's very, very beautiful. And you're right, that is so popular. What else have we got here that I wanted to ask you about? Rhipsalis. Which rhipsalis is this here? Because I mean, I like rhipsalis, but I don't think I've... Oh, floccosa. Okay. I don't think I know this one particularly well. I think this is a bit of a Marmite plant. Occasionally, when I talk to people, they sort of say, oh, what is it? It's just like a pile of sticks, but I love it um it looks like spaghetti

[7:29] Daniel Jackson I've just got into them in the last probably two or three years.

[7:33] Jane Perrone Nice and easy to grow I imagine quite easy to propagate as well you can just take a bit of this off and root it?

[7:40] Daniel Jackson Yeah we've done that.

[7:42] Jane Perrone Yes, yes.

[7:43] Joanne Jackson But it does look a bit of a mess, I agree with you. Enter Text...

[7:46] Jane Perrone It's quite sort of like a bad hair day isn't it? That's the trouble it's not necessarily something that appeals to everybody. I can totally understand that. I know from seeing your stand at shows that also the other thing that people love are these little sort of jewel-like succulents like the gasterias we've got here and the haworthias - tell me what what it is about these that that you love.

[8:14] Daniel Jackson Well gasterias I do like the flowers and the texture on the leaves.

[8:20] Jane Perrone Yes, this is really kind of almost warty isn't it and very very cool looking and the way that it's sort of splayed out in like a fan it's a very appealing - it's a very appealing plant and the Haworthias of course have these unusual plant windows so they're taking in light through these sort of frosted glass look to them don't they which is just really really appealing although I have to say I've lost a few Haworthias in the last couple of years. I think maybe my care was a little bit lax. Any care tips for the Haworthias?

[8:58] Daniel Jackson Well, they do want to dry out between waterings. They don't like blistering hot sun.

[9:03] Jane Perrone Yes, I think this is where I might have gone wrong with mine. They were in my greenhouse and they were just getting too hot and almost sunburnt. They needed a little bit more shade.

[9:13] Joanne JacksonThey're native to South Africa, aren't they? They would grow at the base of mountains or trees in a shadier location.

[9:21] Daniel Jackson Yeah. They will benefit from being repotted, and when you repot if you shake off the compost, you'll find that there's lots of dead roots underneath and they really ought to come out.

[9:33] Jane Perroneright so you can just snip those off presumably?

[9:35] Daniel Jackson They'll just come off in your hand...

[9:37] Jane Perrone They'll just come off, right, and will they re-root if you lose a few roots like that will they come back?

[9:42] Daniel Jackson Yes they usually re-root very easily.

[9:44] Jane Perrone Oh that's good to know that's good to know - I'm looking around me and i'm thinking gosh there's a massive caudex there, I don't know which - is that uh Dioscorea or...?

[9:54] Daniel Jackson Yeah

[9:54] **Jane Perrone ** There's a massive ... I mean it's the size of a large, it's just bigger than a football - it's gnarly it's got this sort of quite a lot of top growth how on earth do you transport these to shows how does the logistics of shows work in terms of getting everything ready to display?

[10:10] Daniel Jackson Well every plant is different - probably the most important thing to do is to secure the pot, because if the pot can't move then that's half the battle all um and then the the top growth then has to be secured so if it was a tall growing cactus we'd rub it in bubble wrap and wire it to the side of a trolley. A plant like that Dioscorea there, you couldn't really wrap that because of the leaves on the top, so you'd you'd secure that framework to the side of the trolley and um just keep your fingers crossed really.

[10:44] Jane Perrone Oh my gosh - doyou ever have any disasters? Have you ever lost anything or damaged anything going to these shows?

[10:50] Daniel Jackson Nothing that was not replaceable. We've lost a few branches on some aeoniums. Aeoniums are not priceless plants. They're quite quick growing. I'd hate to lose some branches from some of the cacti and things.

[11:08] **Jane Perrone ** This elephant's foot, the caudiciform, I mean, that must be... How old is that? That must be - that's a decent size.

[11:16] Daniel Jackson I had that one back when I was a teenager, so that one's well over 30 years now.

[11:22] **Jane Perrone ** I need to go and have a closer look at this because it's just blowing my mind, the amazing structures of the caudex. It's like a stratum of layers on the surface there. How do you make sure this stays in good health? Is it one of these things where you've got to be very careful with the watering so you don't rot things?

[11:42] Daniel Jackson Well, with all succulents, you've got to have careful watering. So I do tend to let all my plants dry out before I water them again. This one is actually a winter grower so we would it would get a drink during the summer but not very much and we'd start watering it properly when the growth starts usually about August time.

[12:04] Jane Perrone So the growth that we're seeing here this will start dying back will it, as summer moves on - we're in March now but presumably this dies back?

[12:13] Daniel Jackson Yes, sohopefully it will still be in leaf and looking good for Malvern in early May. After that, I think the leaves will start to turn yellow and drop off. They make a huge mess all over the other plants. So ideally, I'd like to move it out. But we'll never really get to that point.

[12:32] Jane Perrone Oh, it's absolutely amazing. I can't get my head around that amazing surface of... I have to take a photo of that. I'll put it in the show notes because it's just blowing my mind. It and it's like um it's so solid and ... does this get lots of attention when you take it to shows?

[12:49] Daniel Jackson Yes, lots of people would like to grow those: we do sometimes have some for sale but they're really quite slow from seed.

[12:59] Jane Perrone Yes, oh my gosh yeah. It is absolutely amazing! And you've got another one behind you as well which isn't quite as big um but it's still pretty pretty impressive. I mean I'm just slightly blown away byall these amazing plants. So how do you, when you're selling do you do a lot of propagating of your plants - vegetative propagation - to make make new - are you growing from seed, are you buying in, what's your - or a little bit of everything.

[13:28] Daniel Jackson we try and grow everything ourselves so cuttings is is a good way because if a plant will come from a cutting then usually it will make a saleable plant quite quickly um we do grow all the cacti from seed. That's quite a slow process because it'll be probably three years before we've got a six centimetre plant for sale. But there are a few things that we do buy in because they're just almost impossible to to grow successfully and quickly.

[14:00] Jane Perrone Is there anything in here that you absolutely - presumably things like this, they're just these are your own plants that you're not never going to sell?

[14:08] Daniel Jackson No I wouldn't sell that...

[14:09] Jane Perrone Absolutely! I m just looking around just absolutely blown away by all of the amazing things in here. We're now moving down towards these Ariocarpus, these are becoming really, really popular but i don't think they're the easiest thing to grow. I've not grown these but they seem to be very choice?

[14:28] Jane Perrone- people a little bit um something people?

[14:32] Daniel Jackson Well they are quite choice uh the plants you're looking at here many of them are well over 20 years and they're still in five inch pots yeah they're slow growers they're very very slow growers um probably quite sensitive to too much water so more difficult than most succulents

[14:51] Jane Perrone I mean presumably in that sense you're not probably selling many of these to the general public because it's a it's a hard sell it's a difficult plant it's going to grow slowly

[15:00] Daniel Jackson if we were going to sell them i mean we do have some youngish plants but the price is quite high because the plants are quite old and uh

[15:09] Joanne Jackson It's probably one of the most expensive plants we've got on the nursery isn't it?

[15:14] Jane Perrone I guess that's what perhaps people don't really relate to when they're looking at prices of plants is oftentimes the price is related to just how long it's taken to and how easy it's been to get that plant up to the size it is, right?

[15:27] Joanne Jackson And the rarity of it.

[15:28] Jane Perrone Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And something like, I don't know, behind us, we've got some, you know, classic jade plant there. Obviously that's super easy to propagate and you can make more of that very simply, but which is reflected in the fact that it's a cheaper plant. But yeah, absolutely. I'm not going there with the Arocarpus. That's a collection that I'm not gonna start. I keep seeing cool things and just getting distracted. This is very very distracting guys. I'm just looking at this rather gnarly little number here. I don't know what this is. What is that?

[16:07] Jane Perrone Oh, it's an Adromischus. Okay, so I'm used to seeing the sort of classic plover eggs one - cooperi is it - that looks like this cool plovers eggs, but that's kind of a more gnarly, gnarly version of it. That's so cool

[16:21] Daniel Jackson Yeah, I think that one's herrei.

[16:22] Jane Perrone Oh, okay

[16:25] Joanne Jackson This Rhipsalis is just about to flower.

[16:26] Jane Perrone Oh yes look at that - baccifera, the classic... I mean gosh yours looks a lot more healthy than mine. I do find this is one that can take a lot of abuse like my one I 'm quite mean to my to my mistletoe cactus and it just keeps going. So i need to yeah and this is this is also another lovely one pilocapa Ive got that as well - i find with that one that it's very sensitive to too much water this guy not bothered baccifera like if I give that too much water or none it's not bothered this one you know if I give it too much water it immediately some segments will turn yellow and drop so I find the pilocarpa is harder than the baccifera but I think this is indestructible it's a really really good plant and as you say these cute white flowers coming on it and I mean the flowers are nice on on this one too but.

[17:16] Joanne Jackson it does look like mistletoe doesn't it?

[17:17] Jane Perrone Yeah it does it really does it's amazing. So how many greenhouses have you got here?

[17:25] Joanne Jackson Ten.

[17:25] Jane Perrone Ten! How do you keep up with all the work? There must be so much work to do. Do you have any help? Is it just you two or do you have anyone coming to help you?

[17:37] Joanne Jackson Well, our daughter has joined us this last summer.

[17:41] Jane Perrone Oh, OK.

[17:41] Joanne Jackson* We had a bit of a loss as to what she wants to do, but she's really taken to the plant. So she's going to help us this year. We've also got a couple in the village that come and help us part-time and they are invaluable too - they keep things clean and tidy.

[17:57] Jane Perrone* Yeah absolutely, we're moving into sort of this is sort of gasteria land around here - I mean this is huge but there's just so many plants i mean, i'm just looking at these amazing gasterias. I do love gasterias i think they are - I think it's a bit of nostalgia for me. We were talking earlier about the houseplant expert by Dr. Hessayon, and I remember looking at these gasteria pictures as a child in the book and just being absolutely mesmerized. And I used to remember picking these up at like jumble sales and things. You'd be able to see people giving away plants because they are quite generous and they kind of offset like some of yours have done. But this brachyphila here is just... That's another level that that's so cool .

[18:40] Daniel Jackson yeah fantastic plant we get a lot of um attention when we take that one to the show it's quite fan it's fan shaped really um it'll often well it will flower um out the middle flower about two feet high um it draws lots of attention when it does.

[18:58] Jane Perrone That's amazing that's amazing yeah i think i if i was going to specialize in in a succulent i think gasteria might be it i just think they're so they're so awesome and so many different shapes and uh combinations of things and I think a lot of hybrids now coming in and cultivars that you know a lot of breeding going on in this this particular area which is which is good. T hey're just so gnarly there's just some really nice gnarly look at that that's just like a dinosaur skin so cool. 'm looking more around here and we've got another Rhipsalis here that's catching my attention monacantha with these incredible - i guess they're fruit- would you call that a fruit? I guess you would it looks like a white currant - don't try eating them though.

[19:42] Daniel Jackson It had orange flowers yeah which um turned into these fruits - they've actually the fruits have been there about six months now.

[19:49] Jane Perrone Oh really? Interesting. I guess in nature they'd be picked off by a bird and then turn into a nice bit of manure and sprout that way they're amazing that's lovely and i And I love the orange flowers on that plant. It's beautiful. How do you manage pests in here? Do you have to just have an eagle eye when you're bringing in new plants, presumably? And hope, cross your fingers and hope?

[20:17] Daniel Jackson Well, we've definitely got mealybugs. There's not an awful lot we can do about that. No, indeed. There are some chemicals which we can spray but root mealybugs really a problem because obviously you can't see root mealybug until you repot them.

[20:36] Jane Perrone yes i yeah i root mealybug are my number one enemy I can yes Icould quite happily yeah they're terrible aren't they they really are the worst people say oh mealybugs are terrible then Isay 'have you had root mealybugs'? because you will really know that you're in trouble if you've had root mealybugs normal mealybugs i can cope with root mealybugs oh it's the worst isn't it? So depressing when you take you think oh why is that that's not looking so good i'll just check i'll just check the roots and then you take it out of the pot - the horror the horror - of discovering that they've just sucked the life literally sucked the life out of the roots of a plant oh it's awful and I don't have any great answers either I was talking to another cactus grower and we were just saying yeah it's just yeah just vigilance really but when you've got a big operation like this, obviously, it's a lot of plants to deal with.

[21:28] Daniel Jackson It is a lot of plants, yeah. I speak to my suppliers quite regularly to ask them about developments with pesticides and things. And there's still nothing for root mealybug. No, no, that's right. It's somebody somewhere hopefully is doing some research and we might have an answer. But yeah, it's not good. It's not good. presumably all these plants on pedestals you've got these ups high so they can trail down but also presumably some of these are ones that you take to shows like the paradoxa are here - are these ones that you take to shows which are on display? Enter Text...

[22:03] Daniel Jackson Oh yeah well potentially they'll all go to a show when they're looking good they're up on a pedestal obviously because they're long trailing stems but the plants underneath actually don't mind the shade so it's a win-win really.

[22:16] Jane Perrone Yeah that's a good point yeah i love paradoxa, the rhipsalis you've got here, it's just I find that another really really easy one and uh yeah it's kind of crazy looking but you could just spend all day looking at the weird stems on that one. We're moving around through this amazing greenhouse. When you're getting ready for shows are you cherry picking the things that are looking good at that time to take with you - you've got so many plants, you must be able to pick and choose what you're taking along?

[22:47] Joanne Jackson This area here is more of our collection plants for our national collections. Haworthia, Gasteria and Astroloba, and Daniel sort of like pinched a bit of the space for some of his trailing, hangy plants for the shows, but the show plants are next door.

[23:03] Jane Perrone Yeah, OK.

[23:04] Joanne Jackson Exactly that though. So what we does the week before, two weeks in the run up to a show, is probably select 80 to 100 plants that we're going to display. And it really is what's looking good now. so i mean we are fortunate that he can pick and choose and pick always does pick the best, um and often he's got seven eight nine ten of the same thing so he does have a lot of choice to, choose.

[23:29] Jane Perrone I'm getting distracted though by this massive gasteria this is like the sort of T-rex of gasterias - Gasteria disticha - how old how old must that be is that a fast grower or is that going to be a really old plant?

[23:42] Daniel Jackson I think that one was from seed in about 94.

[23:46] Jane Perrone Oh wow.

[23:46] Daniel Jackson So 30 years.

[23:50] Jane Perrone Wow! It does, I mean I want to say it's a dinosaur, it's a dinosaur gasteria, it just looks so um, that's just an epic plant. I've lost, I'm lost for words looking at that.

[24:01] Daniel Jackson It's really tough.

[24:02] Jane Perrone Is that one that you take to shows?

[24:04] Daniel Jackson Yeah we've taken that one a few times. Yeah it's beautiful, it's beautiful. Your dog's finding something to nibble on! Moving through lots of lots of lots of plants I don't know how I'm just in awe at how many plants - I wasn't I thought you I was going to come and you would have like you know a 20 foot glass house and that was going to be it and I'm just blown away by the size of this place it's incredible.

[24:32] Music.

[24:37] Jane Perrone More from Ottershaw Cacti shortly, but now it's time for question of the week. And it comes from Steven and concerns a VFT, that's short for Venus flytrap, Dionea muscipula being the scientific name, if you care to go that route. And the question from Steven's an interesting one concerning grow lights and carnivorous plants. Steven has a VFT and posted about it in a Facebook group and the other members of that group have weighed in, as people tend to do on Facebook, and said that his plant is not getting enough light. Now, Stephen's plant is under what he describes as a very high powered false breptium grow light. So he's not surprisingly a bit sceptical about this fact. And the thing that people are pointing out is that the insides of the traps on Stephen's plants are not red and people commenting are saying well they should be red otherwise your plant is unhealthy and Stephen wants to know are these facts always true is a green plant specifically the Venus flytrap unhealthy I asked Stephen to send a photo of the plant and he does indeed have a grow light in situ. So what's the deal? Are there fly traps which can be perfectly healthy but cultivars that have totally green traps?

[26:08] Jane Perrone Well the answer of course is yes there are cultivars with all green traps. I've seen a few. Southwest Carnivorous Plants here in the UK is selling the 'All Green; form which has lime green traps and stems, even when grown in high light levels. That's the key phrase here. And flytrapstore.com, they've got a cultivar called 'Grun', G-R-U-N, which is another all-green cultivar. And there's even one called 'Aurora Borealis' that has whitish green traps and there's another called 'Green Wizard', which the traps only ever get just slightly pinkish inside. So there is a heck ton of Venus flytrap breeding going on and you get a huge range. Obviously, in nature, the species in the wild in North and South Carolina has a red trap as an attractant for the creatures that it eats, which is not, interestingly, mainly flies. In my book Legends of the Leaf, I talk about some studies that have been done on what Venus fly traps actually eat and flies make up a minority of their diet. It's more crawling insects, beetles, spiders and so on, which are crawling into the traps rather than flies. But obviously, it's quite possible to breed a green-trapped Venus fly trap. So this may indeed be what Steven has.

[27:37] Jane Perrone However, looking at the photos of his plant, the photos that he sent, the light, I would say, if it's the light that I'm thinking of, is a good, it's hard to tell from the photo, but I would say it's at least 30 to 40 centimeters away from the plant. And the picture of the plant it does look a little bit stretched out and very green so I'm suspecting that despite the fact that there is a grow light in place this plant isn't getting enough light and that the Facebook commenters are right because Venus fly traps need loads of light in nature where they grow in the pine ecotones which is the margins of bogs populated by evergreen shrubs and pine trees in those parts of North and South Carolina I mentioned, it does not survive if there is vegetation above it, and part of its natural life cycle is taking advantage of fires that break out naturally to clear away that vegetation leaving space for the fly traps to get full, full sun. And that's why when we grow them inside, it's absolutely vital that we grow them in tons of light. And that means a grow light for many of us, because as we know, light is usually at least, at least 50% lower indoors.

[29:03] Jane Perrone I suspect that, Steven's growlight just isn't close enough to the plant to make enough of a difference to its growth habit I would also want to know what kind of time are the lights on it should be on at least 12 hours a day to make a real difference and I think I remember also researching some people who leave their Venus fly traps under grow lights all year round 24 7 successfully and grow a successful plant. Now traditionally we think of Venus flytraps as needing a dormancy period where light levels day length is reduced but there have been quite a few indoor growers who found that they can keep the grow lights on the same schedule year round and not cause any harm to their plants but generally speaking a grow light would want to be about 20 to 30 centimetres above the plant depends on the individual growlight and how strong it is but that would be my general rule for a domestic level grow light that you might be getting that isn't a professional one, if I can put it that way. So I think moving this plant nearer to the grow light, Steven, should help you see a more compact growth and also possibly some red tinging to those traps. It may not happen. You may find that you've got a green trapped cultivar. I suspect though, if you've bought your venus flytrap from a general seller not from a specialist seller not marked as a particular cultivar then those traps may well start to redden up once you expose it to more light venus flytraps are not the easiest thing to grow but really that is the key factor is that really strong light that helps the plants to take on their proper form and be as awesome as they can be obviously, joining Facebook groups and getting people weighing in with comments can be perilous. I mean, I'm a member of many different Facebook groups, and sometimes the advice you get is correct, but delivered in a rather rude way by people who, I don't know, they just they've chosen violence, if I can put it that way, they've chosen verbal violence. Sometimes though the information or the advice that you're given is just downright wrong and it's hard to sift out the correct information, but I think in this case Steven, there is a rationale to giving your plant more light whether or not that turns the traps red or not. So I hope that's helpful Steven, and if you've got a question for On The Ledge, do drop me a line ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com, And I will do my best to help. And now it's time to go back to Chertsey in Surrey for more adventures at Ottershaw Cacti.

[31:50] Music.

[31:58] Jane Perrone Repotting - you must just spend your whole life repotting? I suppose maybe things don't need repotting too often but even then...

[32:07] Joanna Jackson Certainly this time of year so yeah it's actually quite nice to be in the greenhouse on a nice bright day when it's cold outside yand repotting so that's where our daughter's come in a bit handy, you know we've thrown her in with a lot of seedlings and even and give another spiky ones to do.

[32:24] Jane Perrone Now we've come into another greenhouse here that is - well it's golden barrel land - we've got a lot of golden barrel cactus which are just immense we've got some old very old jade plants are some of these ones that you've had for a long time Daniel, are these?

[32:38] Daniel Jackson No most of the bigger ones are relatively new, there was a guy that was giving up his collection and we bought the collection from him.

[32:52] Jane Perrone Wow Echinocactus grusonii. I mean I always think the strange thing about this plant is it looks on one level I kind of think that would make a really nice comfortable seat. It looks kind of like a seat and obviously I'm not going to try that out but it just it's so beautifully symmetrical and has a beautiful shape and there's just something about it that really appeals to me but I'm not going to try sitting on it. I don't know why I'm...

[33:17] Daniel JacksonIt's called the mother-in-law's cushion.

[33:19] Jane Perrone Yeah, there you go, I'm not a mother-in-law yet so, but yeah it's an amazing plant and I think they use this a lot in places like Dubai as roadside landscaping.

[33:32] Joanne Jackson Roundabouts in Tenerife.

[33:33] Jane PerroneYeah, roundabouts in Tenerife, exactly, but we've got lots of other amazing things in here. We've got the Aeoniums, a huge space, we'll get on to talking about those, but I'm just wandering down here just in awe. Look at these lovely jade trees, oh they're beautiful. You often see these jade trees going on Facebook marketplace because somebody's got, they've got too big and I always just think well why don't you just chop them back because they do respond quite well to being chopped, but that one is, I mean how old's this one there that the stem on that must be a good, 20 centimeters across more.

[34:09] Joanne Jackson But that's exactly what happened to that one wasn't it?

[34:12] Daniel Jackson Yeah, so last year when we had that really cold spell in December, well, that was 2022, that was in a greenhouse where the heater failed, so I didn't want to lose the plant. So my son and I needed to move it from next door into here, but we had to prune the top off because the plant was so heavy we couldn't actually move it. Wow. So it was really just stumps when it came in here. So it was stubs when it came in and the bits we cut off, they're actually new plants now that are two foot tall.

[34:49] **Jane Perrone **And it's looking great. Yeah, it has sprouted.

[34:52] **Jane Perrone ** Yeah, they're so characterful.

[34:55] Joanne Jackson So don't be in fear of chopping them back, because this is what happens.

[34:57] **Jane Perrone ** No, exactly, exactly. And we're really getting into aeonium territory here. We're going to get on to talking more about aeoniums in An Extra Leaf but tell me a little bit about - I worry with aeoniums about leaving them out too long should they be in out you know where should they be at what time because i think they should be probably outside in the summer but when do you need to worry about bringing bringing them inside can they last They can't last all winter unless you're maybe somewhere very southern in the UK?

[35:37] Daniel Jackson Yeah, so I would recommend bringing them in sometime in September. It does depend on the weather each year. They certainly wouldn't want to be out in the cold and the wet. Although having said that, we've been down to the Minack Theatre this last winter and they've got them growing outside all year round.

[35:59] Jane Perrone Yeah, that's in Cornwall, isn't it? Yeah, I guess the climate down there is just more agreeable.

[36:04] Joanne Jackson It's right on the coast and I think that air movement just keeps them dry because they don't want to be cold and wet or sat cold and wet. And that air movement and the heat from the sea is just enough. It's wonderful, if you get the opportunity, that's a wonderful trip.

[36:20] Jane Perrone Yes, I can imagine.

[36:21] Joanne Jackson Oh look, this is going to flower.

[36:22] Jane Perrone That's a beautiful plant, this is Kumara plicatilis. Why do they give us these plants such amazing names?

[36:30] Daniel Jackson That to be aloe.

[36:31] Jane Perrone Oh it's an aloe that's been moved into a different genus. That's amazing. It's like a candelabra with these amazing fans of leaves and a woody stem. I t's very very architectural and presumably these are going to are they going to be that sort of classic coral orangey kind of color that's beautiful.

[36:51] Joanne Jackson Is that the only one in flower because you've got some in the other greenhouse?

[36:55] Daniel Jackson y=Yeah there's a one at the top that's going to flower as well, so we'll have to try and pollinate.

[37:00] Jane Perrone Oh yeah of course - do you do a lot of that kind of trying to aid the pollination?

[37:07] Daniel Jackson Yes

[37:07] Jane Perrone what do you use is a little paint brush?

[37:09] Daniel Jackson Yeah a little paintbrush.

[37:12] Joanne Jackson Makes a buzzy bee noise when he does it.

[37:14] Daniel Jackson They can be a bit problematic, plicatilis, we try every year and they can be a bit hit and miss.

[37:22] Jane Perrone I wonder what pollinates them in nature, is it like a hummingbird or something maybe? I don't know.

[37:27] Joanne Jackson Oh you're making the wrong sound then.

[37:30] Jane Perrone It could be, I don't know! It's lovely at this time of year to be in here, but I imagine this might get devilishly hot in the summer? You've got big fans up and everything, you're controlling ...

[37:44] Daniel Jackson Yeah it gets really hot so we'll vent it as much as we can so we take out the the end glass and then we've got the fans to blow that that cooler air through.

[37:54] Joanne Jackson It almost feels like the bubble wrap ought to come down soon.

[38:00] Daniel Jackson Yeah.

[38:01] Jane Perrone That's another big job - gosh -when do you find time to sleep?

[38:05] Joanne Jackson Sometimes he gets so excited he can't sleep oh thinking about his plants all the time!

[38:11] Jane Perrone Well it's a really really lovely display in here, as I said I think we're gonna we're gonna chat about aeonium for An Extra Leaf but is there anything else you wanted to tell me about for this main segment of the podcast before we close i mean again we're we're now in a lovely display of cushiony kind of plants including these lovely Mammillarias - I bet these Mammillarias make a lovely display when they're in flower?

[38:42] Daniel Jackson Yep, so they'll they'll be flowering sort of May time they'll have a ring of purple flowers in each head and really popular.

[38:51] Jane Perrone Yeah they are they always make a good display, always at Chelsea I'm always looking out for those they're just absolutely gorgeous

[38:57] Joanne Jackson And the Gymnocalyciums, they're also nice, they have a bit bigger flowers don't they? A bit more blousy

[39:02] Daniel Jackson Yeah but less of them...

[39:07] Joanne Jackson Interesting plants.

[39:07] Jane Perrone Yeah so this one here, this has got a good 30 centimeters across seed sown in 1982. I'm always encouraging people to grow cacti from seed and we have our annual On The Ledge sowalong is is is Mammillaria another good one? What cacti are good to grow from seed and easy for people starting out?

[39:27] Daniel Jackson Well, most cacti come readily from seed, if you can get the seed. So Gymnoclecia, Mammalarias, Noto cacti, Rebutias, they're all quite rewarding from seed. mammilarias and Rebutias, they will usually flower quite young as well, so you get some results.

[39:44] Joanne Jackson Astrophytums are good too.

[39:46] Daniel Jackson Astrophytums as well, yeah.

[39:47] Joanne Jackson We've got some lovely Astrophytums with all interesting markings and things like that. And they really are good doers, aren't they?

[39:54] Jane Perrone Yeah I think it's a great way to go, and it's very satisfying when you have got - I've got a couple of cacti that I've grown from seed for the sow along in previous years and it's quite satisfying once they start getting big and you think I grew that from a tiny seed it's very very satisfying. Well it's lovely to see your beautiful collection and I shall take some photos for the show notes because there are so many gorgeous plants here and we'll also in the show notes list places where people can see you this year in the UK, and your website as well for those who are sadly not gonna make it to any shows. It's a delight. I'm blown away by your collection, Daniel and Jo, so thank you very much.

[40:36] Music.

[40:43] Jane Perrone Thanks to the Jacksons for hosting my visit and do check out the show notes for some wonderful images of the plants we talked about and all the links you need to find out more about the On The Ledge sowalong, a link to that Minack Theatre garden that the Jacksons were talking about and much more. That's all for this week's show - I'll be back in two weeks with an extravaganza of On The Ledge content, so I will see you then, have a great time - enjoy your plants - bye!

[41:13] Music.

[41:25] Jane Perrone The music you heard in this episode was Roll Jordan Roll by The Joy Drops, The Road We Used to Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Whistle by Benjamin Banger. All tracks are licenced under Creative Commons. Visit the website for details. .

[41:51] Music.

Host Jane Perrone visits Daniel and Jo Jackson at Ottershaw Cacti in Surrey to find out about their incredible collection of plants, and a Q&A on growing venus flytraps under growlights.

This week’s guests

Ottershaw Cacti isn’t just a cactus and succulent nursery: its owners Daniel and Joanna Jackson own one of the largest private collections of these plants in the country, and have earned gold medals for their displays at RHS shows. Find out more on their website and Instagram.

Scroll down for images for my Ottershaw tour to view as you listen - click the images to enlarge each one for viewing. All images copyright Jane Perrone.

You can hear previous interviews with Ottershaw Cacti at the Chelsea flower show in On The Ledge episode 95. The Minack Theatre in Cornwall that the Jacksons mention is here.

Coming soon: Patreon subscribers at the Ledge End and Superfan level can listen to a chatiwith the Jacksons about aeoniums in An Extra Leaf 127. Want to become a Patreon subscriber or support On The Ledge in other ways? Visit my support page.

Want to contribute to my 300th episode?

I’d love to hear from listeners old and new about what they’ve learned from On The Ledge. You can either send me an email or voice note to ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com or contribute via Speakpipe.

Ariocarpus and caudiciform plants

Curio rowleyanus

Kumara plicatilis

Adromischus herrei

Gasteria disticha

Rhipsalis floccosa

Rhipsalis baccifera

Mature Crassula ovata

A view of the second glasshouse we tour

Echinocactus grusonii

Question of the week

Steven wanted to know if his venus flytrap was a variety with green traps, or whether its traps hadn’t gone red because light levels were not high enough, even though his plant was under a grow light. I suggested that either could be the case - there has been extensive breeding of flytraps so there are green-trapped varieties including ‘Aurora Borealis’, ‘Grun’ and ‘Green Wizard’. However looking at the positioning of Steven’s growlight, I suspect that his plant does need more light. The light demands of VFTs are extremely high - in their native North and South Carolina, they rely on naturally-occuring wildfires to remove overhanging vegetation so they are exposed to the full sun - and remember light levels are at least 50% lower indoors. I talk about venus fly traps in the wild and their care as an indoor plant in my book Legends of the Leaf - you can hear me reading the chapter in On The Ledge episode 282. I’d advise Steven to move his plant closer to the light and see if that produces any changes to the plant in terms of making it a little less leggy and turning the traps redder.

Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue!